Mains regeneration

[CRACKIE]

Has anyone got experience of using mains regeneration on their Audio or Video systems ? For example Accuphase or PS Audio power products.

The PS Audio Power Plant Premier received some great press reviews last year but I'm hoping to hear from people who have used one at home or possibly for broadcast.

Thanks ~ Dave.

[JustinP1]

I have not used mains regeneration, but I have an Isotek conditioner.

For the £600 it cost it made a big difference to my system, worth every penny. It wasn't just a subjective difference either, there was a definite increase in volume and dynamics. I use a reference volume for listening and mixing, and I had to change it!

I have seen about the regenerators, and as far as I can see as a concept it should work better than just conditioning. After all if you can get a perfect sine wave of AC in, then you cannot get any better than that!?

[SJobson]

I can see how PS Audio can argue that a perfect sine wave 240V input is a good thing. But surely the equipment internally works off DC, so that input is just rectified and smoothed anyway in the PSU?

[JustinP1]

SJobson said:

I can see how PS Audio can argue that a perfect sine wave 240V input is a good thing. But surely the equipment internally works off DC, so that input is just rectified and smoothed anyway in the PSU?

Thats what you would think immediately, but if you think about how DC is gained from the AC current, the conversion does not take into account that the AC wave is imperfect.

I was dubious at first on how much difference it would really make, but it does. I know in hi-fi the 'snake oil' factor is there as not only are some things subjective, it is very difficult to do a proper A B test.

In this case however, the increase in punch and overall volume really was clear straight away as I always listened at a reference level, and it really did change. There was especially lower frequencies that were just not there before now coming through too.

[SJobson]

I'm mainly dubious because I'm sure you'd get more of an upgrade spending the cost of the gubbins on better speakers, amp or source.

[JustinP1]

SJobson said:

I'm mainly dubious because I'm sure you'd get more of an upgrade spending the cost of the gubbins on better speakers, amp or source.

It depends what system you have.

If you have £1000 worth of separates then you are probably right, taking out a £300 amp and spending £600 on another amp will have more effect.

However, if you already have say a £3000 source, £3000 amp and £3000 speakers, then to improve any of those the you would have to be spending £5000.

In that sense £600 or so for a mains conditioner is a pittance.

In my case I am lucky in that by pre and power amp together are about £8k worth. However, the difference the £600 made, if you had told me that somehow I had been upgraded to another amp, I would have not only believed you, but thanked you a lot!

If you have an expensive system, I would say that for the cost, there is not much of a better upgrade you can do.

[SJobson]

It would surely depend very much on the quality of the mains coming into your house in the first place? If it's very dirty then you may see a greater benefit than if you have a very clean normal supply.

[Mr_Yogi]

SJobson said:

It would surely depend very much on the quality of the mains coming into your house in the first place? If it's very dirty then you may see a greater benefit than if you have a very clean normal supply.

That would go with my experience, the effect of my mains conditioner was quite apparent in my old house, but I hadly notice any difference where I live now.

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

JustinP1 said:

SJobson said:

I can see how PS Audio can argue that a perfect sine wave 240V input is a good thing. But surely the equipment internally works off DC, so that input is just rectified and smoothed anyway in the PSU?

Thats what you would think immediately, but if you think about how DC is gained from the AC current, the conversion does not take into account that the AC wave is imperfect.

That's just badly designed PSU's then really. When you take a lot of the 'high end' kit apart and look at the components it's hilarious sometimes. Well, when you've not actually paid for the kit anyway

To be honest, the obvious answer is just to run the amp rails off batteries. Massive current availability and obviously DC already. Ok, there are challenges such as listening time constraints and having to charge it all up whilst not using it.

We ran one such thing in Marconi's listening room (when that existed) and it was great. We were however running directly off the inch thick copper bus bars from the telephone exchange backup battery room next door. Maybe not a home setup then....

[CRACKIE]

Cheers for the feedback ~ the benefit of regeneration is very dependant on the quality of mains coming in. Mains quality here in Huntingdon changes a lot over a 24 hour period and I'm trying to get my system to sound as good during the "noisy" daytime hours as it does in the "cleaner" early hours.

Reviews of the PS Audio PPP ( £1800 ) suggest it can halve mains distortion but I'd love to hear some complements from a PH user before I take the plunge. I know my car wouldn't object to having me splashing the cash on it instead

Edited by CRACKIE on Thursday 22 January 22:18

[JustinP1]

I would say that half if not more of the interference comes from the home. Freezers and the like are the obvious ones, but also big things like plasma TVs, and even the hi-fi separates with eachother cause interference.

Nordost has just brought out a range of units that can be used on their own or in conjunction with a conditioner.

As I have mentioned, I am unusual in that I am an audiophile who is also an audio engineer by trade, and also a keen pseudo-science-sceptic. They smell like snake oil, but I will reserve judgement!

Maybe I would try a local dealer. They should do them on home trial. I bought mine from Cheshire Audio, I am sure they do home trials.

The problem with scientific testing of power products is that they involve turning everything off to do a test. Not only can you not do a quick AB without getting up and fannying around, as the audio device take some time to 'stabilise' from the current and heat, their sound also changes as they 'warm up'.

Good luck!

[CRACKIE]

Cheers Justin ~ I have an background in audio engineering too and am also very sceptical about some of the "snake oil" products where there is no measurable benefit. Products from companies such as Vertex AQ do appear to work very well subjectively.

As you suggest ~ I'll try to find a dealer who offers a home trial on PS Audio products. Any ideas ???

[SJobson]

Can't you fit a dedicated mains spur for the stereo for less than £1800?

[CRACKIE]

SJobson said:

Can't you fit a dedicated mains spur for the stereo for less than £1800?

Like the idea of that ~ I'll get some quotes. In principle the PPP is a pure sinewave generator feeding a huge 1.5KW class D power amp. The reviews ( Martin Colloms in Hi-Fi News ) imply that this is better than a dedicated spur !!

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

SJobson said:

Can't you fit a dedicated mains spur for the stereo for less than £1800?

Don't see how that'd help to be honest unless there's some big filter stopping rubbish ending up on it from all the other spurs. And if you have to put a filter in, just put it on the end of the spur you're using...

Are high end Hifi manufactures putting poor PSU's in on purpose or something? This pure sine wave generator. It from the description goes crappy mains -> pure DC -> pure AC. And it must do the pure DC bit otherwise you're not going to get pure AC out. And what do we want in the amp? Pure DC. Ermmm....

[SJobson]

ThatPhilBrettGuy said:

SJobson said:

Can't you fit a dedicated mains spur for the stereo for less than £1800?

Don't see how that'd help to be honest

It's cheaper for the same placebo effect

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

SJobson said:

ThatPhilBrettGuy said:

SJobson said:

Can't you fit a dedicated mains spur for the stereo for less than £1800?

Don't see how that'd help to be honest

It's cheaper for the same placebo effect

I bet these mains conditioners stick to the golden rules of expensive hifi manufacturing.

1) Heavy. The more expensive the more you should make your kit weigh. If it doesn't have any controls on it, consider making it so heavy it must sit on the floor.

2) Heat. If it's a power device, ensure it runs hot. Aim for the temperature that you can just hold your hand on the top constantly. Any hotter people will think there's something wrong with it, and cooler that it's not actually doing anything.

3) Nice CNC case. Goes without saying but as you have to achieve 1) you might as well.

4) Connectors. Exotic materials are a must and you should consider making them oversized. Really oversized. If it's mains connectors use plugs from an electricity substation.

[JustinP1]

ThatPhilBrettGuy said:

SJobson said:

ThatPhilBrettGuy said:

SJobson said:

Can't you fit a dedicated mains spur for the stereo for less than £1800?

Don't see how that'd help to be honest

It's cheaper for the same placebo effect

I bet these mains conditioners stick to the golden rules of expensive hifi manufacturing.

1) Heavy. The more expensive the more you should make your kit weigh. If it doesn't have any controls on it, consider making it so heavy it must sit on the floor.

2) Heat. If it's a power device, ensure it runs hot. Aim for the temperature that you can just hold your hand on the top constantly. Any hotter people will think there's something wrong with it, and cooler that it's not actually doing anything.

3) Nice CNC case. Goes without saying but as you have to achieve 1) you might as well.

4) Connectors. Exotic materials are a must and you should consider making them oversized. Really oversized. If it's mains connectors use plugs from an electricity substation.

Yeah, you are right, big heavy metal cases -

Didn't you know that was a Faraday Cage?


But seriously, before I tried one I was a sceptic. I would be willing to put any 'subjective' difference due to placebo effect, however on my system it had a marked effect on the volume of my system - something I use every day for my job doing critical listening.

I could go out and get a sound meter and do the same test scientifically, but I would stake my job on the fact that my ears were right.

So, they do do 'something'. From that point it comes down to your own ears.

[SJobson]

I'm struggling with the volume difference. How can it come about? If the mains in your area is the bottom end of tolerance and the PS Audio produces an output at the top end (+6%/-10%, i.e. 254-216V) then there could be a 17.5% difference in the DC rail levels in the equipment. Audible? Probably. Better quality? Well, if something's louder people tend to perceive it as better, even in the absence of any other difference.

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

JustinP1 said:

But seriously, before I tried one I was a sceptic. I would be willing to put any 'subjective' difference due to placebo effect, however on my system it had a marked effect on the volume of my system - something I use every day for my job doing critical listening.

I could go out and get a sound meter and do the same test scientifically, but I would stake my job on the fact that my ears were right.

So, they do do 'something'. From that point it comes down to your own ears.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you're fibbing about a change . It's just sad that there is. You spend a ton of money on a amplification chain and they can't be bothered to put good PSU's in it.... or so it seems.

I do wonder is actually happening though? If it's getting louder it implies that the DC rails in the amp are at a higher voltage. A tiny change in the shape of the AC input having any effect? All very odd. Is all the kit plugged into this thing? I'm trying to get a feel for the setup.