Will there be Porsche / VW F1 team ?
Discussion
cant see what Porsche or VW could hope to gain from it personally? they have a pretty good presence in GT where their core customer market is (if motorsport really does influence sales) and they are pretty successful at it. they have the carrera supercups around the world and the LMP programmes to focus on. they supply engines to the Grand-Am thing in America and probably are involved in some other things that i cant think of
to start an F1 team would mean taking resources from one of those programmes or starting afresh, which would be hugely expensive and risky in this climate, yes they have billions as was publicised last week from their stock markets dealings but given Toyota waste something like $500m a year for nothing, its hardly good business...
to start an F1 team would mean taking resources from one of those programmes or starting afresh, which would be hugely expensive and risky in this climate, yes they have billions as was publicised last week from their stock markets dealings but given Toyota waste something like $500m a year for nothing, its hardly good business...
Porsche have been involved in the past, in the 1960's they ran their own cars for a few years. Then they reappeared in the 1980's (1983-1987) as the designers of the TAG-Turbo engines in the Championship winning McLarens, then again in 1991 with an overweight underpowered V12 in the back of the Footwork.
Never say never.
Never say never.
As another has said, never say never, but I doubt they will for quite some time.
Why spend a 9 figure sum, every year, on competing in a championship where, at best, you might have a chance of winning after a few years and possibly a WDC and CC within 5 years, assuming you succeed where almost all others have failed.
Alternatively you could spend half that over 5 years and be almost certain to win one of the 3 most prestigious events in the World.
Why spend a 9 figure sum, every year, on competing in a championship where, at best, you might have a chance of winning after a few years and possibly a WDC and CC within 5 years, assuming you succeed where almost all others have failed.
Alternatively you could spend half that over 5 years and be almost certain to win one of the 3 most prestigious events in the World.
Audi F1?
It's feasable. They dominated rallying in the 80's, did extremely well in touring cars in the 90's and for the last decade have dominated Le Mans (except 2003 when Bentley won, but even that was an Audi chassis underneath!). So F1 is a natural progression. And with their main German competition of BMW and Mercedes in F1, an Audi team is inevitable
It's feasable. They dominated rallying in the 80's, did extremely well in touring cars in the 90's and for the last decade have dominated Le Mans (except 2003 when Bentley won, but even that was an Audi chassis underneath!). So F1 is a natural progression. And with their main German competition of BMW and Mercedes in F1, an Audi team is inevitable
dpbird90 said:
Audi F1?
It's feasable. They dominated rallying in the 80's, did extremely well in touring cars in the 90's and for the last decade have dominated Le Mans (except 2003 when Bentley won, but even that was an Audi chassis underneath!). So F1 is a natural progression. And with their main German competition of BMW and Mercedes in F1, an Audi team is inevitable
I think that it was the engine that was 'Audi', although rebadged. It's feasable. They dominated rallying in the 80's, did extremely well in touring cars in the 90's and for the last decade have dominated Le Mans (except 2003 when Bentley won, but even that was an Audi chassis underneath!). So F1 is a natural progression. And with their main German competition of BMW and Mercedes in F1, an Audi team is inevitable
dpbird90 said:
Audi F1?
It's feasable. They dominated rallying in the 80's, did extremely well in touring cars in the 90's and for the last decade have dominated Le Mans (except 2003 when Bentley won, but even that was an Audi chassis underneath!). So F1 is a natural progression. And with their main German competition of BMW and Mercedes in F1, an Audi team is inevitable
Do you notice a pattern in those?It's feasable. They dominated rallying in the 80's, did extremely well in touring cars in the 90's and for the last decade have dominated Le Mans (except 2003 when Bentley won, but even that was an Audi chassis underneath!). So F1 is a natural progression. And with their main German competition of BMW and Mercedes in F1, an Audi team is inevitable
In rallying they had an initial advantage but then they were swamped when the competition developed cars to match the rules. In touring cars they made an instant impact because they had 4wd and, from memory, they weren't as competitive once they lost the technical advantage and in Le Mans they've had a combination of a lack of other mainstream competition and a slice of good fortune.
I can't see what edge, if any, VAG could garner in F1 so I don't see why they'd bother.
dpbird90 said:
Audi F1?
It's feasable. They dominated rallying in the 80's, did extremely well in touring cars in the 90's and for the last decade have dominated Le Mans (except 2003 when Bentley won, but even that was an Audi chassis underneath!). So F1 is a natural progression. And with their main German competition of BMW and Mercedes in F1, an Audi team is inevitable
Audi will not enter F1. Trust me on this one. F1 holds no appeal for a brand that demonstrates its road car-based technical innovations in competition.It's feasable. They dominated rallying in the 80's, did extremely well in touring cars in the 90's and for the last decade have dominated Le Mans (except 2003 when Bentley won, but even that was an Audi chassis underneath!). So F1 is a natural progression. And with their main German competition of BMW and Mercedes in F1, an Audi team is inevitable
Two companies (Porsche and VW) with no interest at all in F1 are now one and I doubt those two negatives are going to make a positive.
I wanted to ask you about the Bentley 2003 Le Mans car though. Was it really an Audi underneath? Because if it was then Peter Ellary and all the guys at RTN in Norfolk who designed and built the Bentley LMP cars for 3 years must've been scratching their arses quite a bit. People have been saying rubbish like your comment for years now: it was utter crap at the time and it's still crap now. Joest ran the lead car in '03, but the chassis was not, ever, an R8 with a roof.
God I sound like a miserable git, but after 7 years (since the first Bentley in '01) of reading comments like that it still annoys me.
One has to think of Porsche, VW and Audi all as one.
They obviously also own Lamborghini and Bugatti.
The VW boss has gone on record that they created the Veyron, and the subsequent huge losses that they make on each car, as a showcase for their engineering talent.
The millions of Euros they poured into it and the millions of Euros they lose on the project is still cheaper and more straightforward than F1 and, by the publicity of having the automotive equivalent of Concorde, it's more beneficial marketing-wise.
As has been said before, never say never. But I think it'd need a big change at the top, a big change in marketing strategy or (most likely) a big change in F1 before any of the brands entered.
A shame in a way. Lamborghini or Bugatti F1 would be great.
They obviously also own Lamborghini and Bugatti.
The VW boss has gone on record that they created the Veyron, and the subsequent huge losses that they make on each car, as a showcase for their engineering talent.
The millions of Euros they poured into it and the millions of Euros they lose on the project is still cheaper and more straightforward than F1 and, by the publicity of having the automotive equivalent of Concorde, it's more beneficial marketing-wise.
As has been said before, never say never. But I think it'd need a big change at the top, a big change in marketing strategy or (most likely) a big change in F1 before any of the brands entered.
A shame in a way. Lamborghini or Bugatti F1 would be great.
FourWheelDrift said:
Porsche have been involved in the past, in the 1960's they ran their own cars for a few years. Then they reappeared in the 1980's (1983-1987) as the designers of the TAG-Turbo engines in the Championship winning McLarens, then again in 1991 with an overweight underpowered V12 in the back of the Footwork.
Never say never.
Wasn't it the other way round - McLaren-TAG gave a spec to Porsche that they then built? Could be wrong but I seem to remember it being that way, mainly so that it would be to John Barnard's exacting standards. Either way I'm sure Porsche had a lot of input on the finer points of engine design.Never say never.
One thing that's been clear in F1 pretty much since the start of the modern manufacturer era (ie: when Renault got the Turbo engine to work) is that very few of them succeed, certainly now that they've got their hands on chassis building. BMW, Honda, Renault and Mercedes are the only to have challenged Ferrari and won (and perhaps Ford, although almost despite themselves) and only then when they have joined up with an established team. Perhaps Porsche are well aware of this, as much as they are aware of theirs and VW's rich history of success in sportscars?
Edited by kevin ritson on Wednesday 28th January 15:09
kevin ritson said:
Wasn't it the other way round - McLaren-TAG gave a spec to Porsche that they then built? Could be wrong but I seem to remember it being that way, mainly so that it would be to John Barnard's exacting standards. Either way I'm sure Porsche had a lot of input on the minor points of engine design.
is the way I remember it. I was told that Barnard was something of a control freak on all aspects of the engine build. A bit of a pain.kevin ritson said:
One thing that's been clear in F1 pretty much since the start of the modern manufacturer era (ie: when Renault got the Turbo engine to work)
Shame I missed that. Was that when Berger won or Nannini? I can't remember any other time.Anyway, to a bloke my age it was a Toleman with a bought-in engine.
I always assumed that Audi would move up to the big time after their success with their sports cars although I'm not so hopeful now that they've gone all oil-burnery. They'd be good for F1 and, if successful, I reckon Euro for Euro the return would be bigger than for Le Mans. But this is not the time to put forward a business case for F1. If FOTA do become the defacto legislators of F1 then I can see them as a group encouraging Audi to join. But that's for the future.
Derek Smith said:
I always assumed that Audi would move up to the big time after their success with their sports cars although I'm not so hopeful now that they've gone all oil-burnery. They'd be good for F1 and, if successful, I reckon Euro for Euro the return would be bigger than for Le Mans. But this is not the time to put forward a business case for F1. If FOTA do become the defacto legislators of F1 then I can see them as a group encouraging Audi to join. But that's for the future.
I think the yardstick VAG would look at is Toyota. Massive budget, pretty good staff, German location. Still a middle running team.Traditionally, under Audi branding, they seem to have cherry picked when they've joined arenas to exploit a dip in competitors or a gap in the rules. I'm not so sure there's such an obvious way into F1 at the moment.
its all well to speculate that the "return" in F1 is better than that of Le Mans but until someone actually defines, in real tangible, (maybe financial) terms, what that return is i am totally lost as to why anyone would throw money at an F1 team these days...
brand exposure?, road car sales?, develop new technology?, boosting the hospitality industry?, something to do on a sunday afternoon?
i am not saying le mans offers any of these things but neither does F1 and at a greatly increased cost!...
brand exposure?, road car sales?, develop new technology?, boosting the hospitality industry?, something to do on a sunday afternoon?
i am not saying le mans offers any of these things but neither does F1 and at a greatly increased cost!...
Surely the marketing for Porsche/Lamborghini/Bently is very relevent as they'd be racing one of their main competitors (Ferrari) in there main speciality. I'm sure the marketing boys would have a great time with photos of a Porsche/Lamborghini/Bently F1 car beating a red Ferrari.
And if there was ever a time to get into F1, now is it. There's Honda going spare (with Ross Brawn - arguably one of the most influential people in F1 in the last 10 years) and the biggest rule change for 20+ years. No-one's sure who is going to line up at the front of the grid at Australia, where as in the last 10 years you could have put money it being one of Ferrari, McLaren or Williams.
And if there was ever a time to get into F1, now is it. There's Honda going spare (with Ross Brawn - arguably one of the most influential people in F1 in the last 10 years) and the biggest rule change for 20+ years. No-one's sure who is going to line up at the front of the grid at Australia, where as in the last 10 years you could have put money it being one of Ferrari, McLaren or Williams.
Colesy21 said:
Surely the marketing for Porsche/Lamborghini/Bently is very relevent as they'd be racing one of their main competitors (Ferrari) in there main speciality. I'm sure the marketing boys would have a great time with photos of a Porsche/Lamborghini/Bently F1 car beating a red Ferrari.
And if there was ever a time to get into F1, now is it. There's Honda going spare (with Ross Brawn - arguably one of the most influential people in F1 in the last 10 years) and the biggest rule change for 20+ years. No-one's sure who is going to line up at the front of the grid at Australia, where as in the last 10 years you could have put money it being one of Ferrari, McLaren or Williams.
What good would winning races in a Honda chassis with a Mercedes engine do for the VW brand?And if there was ever a time to get into F1, now is it. There's Honda going spare (with Ross Brawn - arguably one of the most influential people in F1 in the last 10 years) and the biggest rule change for 20+ years. No-one's sure who is going to line up at the front of the grid at Australia, where as in the last 10 years you could have put money it being one of Ferrari, McLaren or Williams.
It's not as if they'd be daft enough to use their Golf platform for an F1 car as well as every other car in the group...or would they?
10 Pence Short said:
Colesy21 said:
Surely the marketing for Porsche/Lamborghini/Bently is very relevent as they'd be racing one of their main competitors (Ferrari) in there main speciality. I'm sure the marketing boys would have a great time with photos of a Porsche/Lamborghini/Bently F1 car beating a red Ferrari.
And if there was ever a time to get into F1, now is it. There's Honda going spare (with Ross Brawn - arguably one of the most influential people in F1 in the last 10 years) and the biggest rule change for 20+ years. No-one's sure who is going to line up at the front of the grid at Australia, where as in the last 10 years you could have put money it being one of Ferrari, McLaren or Williams.
What good would winning races in a Honda chassis with a Mercedes engine do for the VW brand?And if there was ever a time to get into F1, now is it. There's Honda going spare (with Ross Brawn - arguably one of the most influential people in F1 in the last 10 years) and the biggest rule change for 20+ years. No-one's sure who is going to line up at the front of the grid at Australia, where as in the last 10 years you could have put money it being one of Ferrari, McLaren or Williams.
It's not as if they'd be daft enough to use their Golf platform for an F1 car as well as every other car in the group...or would they?
They may have to run with another engine for a year or two, but I still think it'd be the cheapest, fastest and most competitve opporunity for Porsche/VAG to get into F1.
pablo said:
its all well to speculate that the "return" in F1 is better than that of Le Mans but until someone actually defines, in real tangible, (maybe financial) terms, what that return is i am totally lost as to why anyone would throw money at an F1 team these days...
brand exposure?, road car sales?, develop new technology?, boosting the hospitality industry?, something to do on a sunday afternoon?
i am not saying le mans offers any of these things but neither does F1 and at a greatly increased cost!...
I think the difference between F1 and Le Mans is the same between association football and hockey. One is on TV all the time with every Tom, Wayne and Cheryl watching whilst the other is a niche market. How many non-nerds watch Le Mans on TV let alone go there? Yet everyone at work has an opinion on F1 'cause it was on TV at Sunday lunch time. The bloke next door to me never misses an F1 on TV but has never been to a motor race!brand exposure?, road car sales?, develop new technology?, boosting the hospitality industry?, something to do on a sunday afternoon?
i am not saying le mans offers any of these things but neither does F1 and at a greatly increased cost!...
F1 manufacturers have a cache. But even in the days of Jaguar and Aston banging it out with the Mercs you could still pick your own spot to watch at most WSC events.
It's all about exposure. Hamilton advertises Tag Huer watches. What marketing bonus does McNish get out of his tremendous performances?
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