500 General Tuning Stages ?
Discussion
I posted this question on the "ECU Upgrade ?" thread but I think it got a bit lost.
On the subject of ECU upgrades, I thought it might be interesting to get some feedback on engine tuning in general. I've got a '98 500, fairly standard with just a smooth bore induction kit from ACT (and probably a V8 Enhancement de-cat pipe at some point soon). The car is running well so I'm guessing it will be around 265-275bhp in that trim.
So, lets say I wanted to get 300bhp. What would be the most cost effective and sensible route?
And similarly, if I wanted to get the quoted figure of 340bhp?
Just interested to see what the options are (and the cost) from people that have already done it. Is the ECU always going to be the best starting point? Looking at the write-up from MonkeyBusiness on the Megasquirt upgrade, he seemed to get some very impresive results at a reasonable cost (obviously with a lot of his own time and effort).
On the subject of ECU upgrades, I thought it might be interesting to get some feedback on engine tuning in general. I've got a '98 500, fairly standard with just a smooth bore induction kit from ACT (and probably a V8 Enhancement de-cat pipe at some point soon). The car is running well so I'm guessing it will be around 265-275bhp in that trim.
So, lets say I wanted to get 300bhp. What would be the most cost effective and sensible route?
And similarly, if I wanted to get the quoted figure of 340bhp?
Just interested to see what the options are (and the cost) from people that have already done it. Is the ECU always going to be the best starting point? Looking at the write-up from MonkeyBusiness on the Megasquirt upgrade, he seemed to get some very impresive results at a reasonable cost (obviously with a lot of his own time and effort).
My old chim produced 315 with nothing more special than a cam change. HAving said that it was an absolute b*tch at anything less than 2k rpm.
As for 340? Well my new buggy has 350 and if you look at my profile for what that took I think that you will see that getting there involves serious money
As for 340? Well my new buggy has 350 and if you look at my profile for what that took I think that you will see that getting there involves serious money
George 500 said:
My old chim produced 315 with nothing more special than a cam change. HAving said that it was an absolute b*tch at anything less than 2k rpm.
As for 340? Well my new buggy has 350 and if you look at my profile for what that took I think that you will see that getting there involves serious money
Yep 350 Hp does not come cheep as i can also conquer As for 340? Well my new buggy has 350 and if you look at my profile for what that took I think that you will see that getting there involves serious money
The first and most important thing to decide what you want from the car and how you plan to use it. Based on my experience the standard 500 in reasonable trim produces between 260-270 bhp. Fitting a wilder cam, some simple induction improvements and having someone fiddle with the map can get the engine up to 300 and a bit. The car will however loose “drivability”, my engine went from 268 to 301 with a 224 cam fitted and some simple induction mods. It goes a whole lot better when driving “enthusiastically” but is horrible to drive slowly. If you use the car in traffic or for burbling to the pub on a Sunday then a wild cam will probably spoil the fun, it you do track days then it is just what you need.
Do you actually want more power because want makes the Griff feel quick is the torque. Higher peak power is achieved simply by producing torque at higher rpm. BHP = torque x rpm / 5252 so if you fit a cam that works better at higher RPM you get more power when you rev the engine. If you tend not to drive at higher revs and want the car to feel quicker you may actually need more torque rather than more power. This is probably a simplistic approach and probably quite wrong but is way I understand it. Obviously the ideal is more torque from low down that continues to the rev limit but that seems rather difficult to achieve.
Part of the problem with the Griff is the fairly basic ECU which only controls the fuelling. As the ignition timing is mechanical and not that accurate it can not be dynamically optimised for particular driving conditions which can help to tame a more wild cam. The Lucus ECU is not easily mapped and employing one of the few people that can do it becomes quite expensive and not always as successful as you would hope. One of the after market ECUs however seem a better option and once they have a base map running you can fiddle with the settings yourself. In hindsight I should have ditched the Lucus ECU long before fitting the new cam.
An important thing is what do you plan to do after you have got used to the 300bhp ? if you think you may want more and then more it may make better financial sense to think about swapping the entire engine for something a little better than the original TVR offering otherwise you will end up paying to do the same thing several times.
Try calling V8D and explain what you want. In my experience they will offer good honest advice rather than tying to sell you something. Which of course in reality in the long term is the best way of actually selling something.
Sorry for long rambling reply.
Do you actually want more power because want makes the Griff feel quick is the torque. Higher peak power is achieved simply by producing torque at higher rpm. BHP = torque x rpm / 5252 so if you fit a cam that works better at higher RPM you get more power when you rev the engine. If you tend not to drive at higher revs and want the car to feel quicker you may actually need more torque rather than more power. This is probably a simplistic approach and probably quite wrong but is way I understand it. Obviously the ideal is more torque from low down that continues to the rev limit but that seems rather difficult to achieve.
Part of the problem with the Griff is the fairly basic ECU which only controls the fuelling. As the ignition timing is mechanical and not that accurate it can not be dynamically optimised for particular driving conditions which can help to tame a more wild cam. The Lucus ECU is not easily mapped and employing one of the few people that can do it becomes quite expensive and not always as successful as you would hope. One of the after market ECUs however seem a better option and once they have a base map running you can fiddle with the settings yourself. In hindsight I should have ditched the Lucus ECU long before fitting the new cam.
An important thing is what do you plan to do after you have got used to the 300bhp ? if you think you may want more and then more it may make better financial sense to think about swapping the entire engine for something a little better than the original TVR offering otherwise you will end up paying to do the same thing several times.
Try calling V8D and explain what you want. In my experience they will offer good honest advice rather than tying to sell you something. Which of course in reality in the long term is the best way of actually selling something.
Sorry for long rambling reply.
steve-V8s said:
If you tend not to drive at higher revs and want the car to feel quicker you may actually need more torque rather than more power. This is probably a simplistic approach and probably quite wrong but is way I understand it.
I agree absolutely. My s/c V8S isn't particularly powerful in the scheme of things and there are absolutely loads of cars that would beat it in a drag race, but it has so much stump pulling torque in the bottom two thirds of the rev range that it is hilarious to drive. Unless you're actually racing against the clock, mid-range torque is what you notice most.I'm surprised at just how quick my 500 is. It puts out about 300bhp but pulls from speed6 cars and paces with Cerbs and Tuscan S's. Peak BHP IMO really is meaningless, It is the bhp from mid range right up to the red line that matters and good torque. I have seen a few 300 bhp power curves which sacrifice torque and are peaky. I went to Rob at V8D wanting the H404 cam, but he advised on the Stealth cam. The engine he put together for me is very smooth from tickover to red line.
My 500 has the following:
polished ported large bore inlet manifold with shortened trumpets
Stealth Cam
ACT smooth bore stuff
Plenum spacer and insulator
V8D stage III cylinder heads done by Rob's bloke
Duplex chain set
Precats removed
Magnacor leads
Mark Adams tuned and chipped
300 BHP / 325 ftlb
Also helps to have a car which is on the lighter side of production standards too
My 500 has the following:
polished ported large bore inlet manifold with shortened trumpets
Stealth Cam
ACT smooth bore stuff
Plenum spacer and insulator
V8D stage III cylinder heads done by Rob's bloke
Duplex chain set
Precats removed
Magnacor leads
Mark Adams tuned and chipped
300 BHP / 325 ftlb
Also helps to have a car which is on the lighter side of production standards too
Well that's pretty much like my Griff totally smooth around town but blisteringly quick when I want it to be. It's around 300 bhp/325 ft lbs torque. Mark Adams did have a setting that showed 325 bhp from it but torque suffered.
It's got a TVR Power Cam (described as a 355 and sort of a prototype pre-taraka profile)
Solid Lifters
Jenvey Twin Throttle Body
ACT Carbon Plenum and Trumpets
Jag AFM
ACT Smooth inlet pipe
K&N air filter
Tornado ECU chip
Bosch injectors
Magnoacore leads
ACT stainless headers without pre-cats
Mark Adams time on the rolling road
It's got a TVR Power Cam (described as a 355 and sort of a prototype pre-taraka profile)
Solid Lifters
Jenvey Twin Throttle Body
ACT Carbon Plenum and Trumpets
Jag AFM
ACT Smooth inlet pipe
K&N air filter
Tornado ECU chip
Bosch injectors
Magnoacore leads
ACT stainless headers without pre-cats
Mark Adams time on the rolling road
Edited by RichB on Saturday 31st January 15:34
Do not do it, loose weight, never fill the petrol tank above 1/2, take no passengers. Mine is in the garage, had all sorts done total £10k. After first "upgrade"(not) had 2 rebuilds,throttle stuck open(full), cought fire, loss of compression, loss of oil pressure and sat in the garage unable to start after being collected on a trailor from the last rebuild. Up for sale once i can get it started ! Much prefer tootling around in my fender xs, or should of kept it standard ! Sorry.
Anybody know a shrink to get me back into "performance" ?
Anybody know a shrink to get me back into "performance" ?
My experience is similar to RichB but we fitted a Kent 234Supersport cam. A touch wild compared to some other cams but having Mark Adams fit his Tornado chip, Bosch injectors and set it all up properly on a rolling road, I get 299bhp and 320lbft. It pulls cleanly from 1200rpm in all gears with no hunting at all - it was a pig to drive at less than 2000rpm prior to the MA setup. Fyi, it also had the precats removed various other minor head mods, though ECU & AFM both std TVR.
Driving wise, pre-mods it was quick and very torquey but felt a touch lazy, never really encouraging you to use the gears. Post mods it has much more urgency and responds instantly to the throttle. It revs much more freely and doesn't hit the limiter until 6250rpm which feels great.
Cost wise, the engine mods were around £3.5k. The MA element was around £1.6k
although this included the Bosch injectors and RR, making a budget of around £5k. I would recommend that you also consider uprading brakes & suspension if you're going to increase performance. I added Nitrons and some minor brake upgrades for around £1.5k.
Moto
Driving wise, pre-mods it was quick and very torquey but felt a touch lazy, never really encouraging you to use the gears. Post mods it has much more urgency and responds instantly to the throttle. It revs much more freely and doesn't hit the limiter until 6250rpm which feels great.
Cost wise, the engine mods were around £3.5k. The MA element was around £1.6k
although this included the Bosch injectors and RR, making a budget of around £5k. I would recommend that you also consider uprading brakes & suspension if you're going to increase performance. I added Nitrons and some minor brake upgrades for around £1.5k.
Moto
Del 203 said:
David Beer said:
Anybody know a shrink to get me back into "performance" ?
One day we WILL meet & YOU CAN drive mine 
Dave, That's real bad luck but don't lose faith. I had a Chim back in 95/96 - was perfect until it's 24k service. Engine cut out 3 times on the way home up the M1 - scarey! Car went to numerous dealers and the factory who all tried to fix the problem - no luck just lots of BIG bills. PX'd it for a new BMW eventually, saying "never again". 2003 was tempted back into the fold and although I would say it's been trouble free, I've loved every mile.
PS your hot start kit is fab. Never had another problem with the starter. Perhaps you should build engines also.
Moto
PS your hot start kit is fab. Never had another problem with the starter. Perhaps you should build engines also.
Moto
David Beer said:
Um, not sure it should be down to "luck" but i know what you mean. I will get to the next Griff growl, or what ever, might not be in the Griff though !
You better wear your drinking boots because your owed a few 
& i suspect not only from me Well tks, trying to sort the work front out though
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