Unions past their sell-by date?
Discussion
After Immingham yesterday, today saw unofficial walk-outs at various sites in England, plus others in Scotland and Northern Ireland, linked to workforce flexibility that has led to significant international investment in the UK.
Also in the recent past we saw the French getting close to burning more sheep over Sarkozy and la rupture.
Today came news of possible future tube strikes due to non-front line job losses, presumably arising out of Gordon's recession.
Not so long ago employees of the national airline Alitalia were determined to drive their employer off the runway and into a bankruptcy file.
How does any of this militancy help anybody in any real way?
In the UK at least people aren't born with an instant and lifelong right to a job - or the right to set their own employment conditions by holding insolvency over an employer's head. Yet frequent industrial (in)action suggests otherwise.
With Equal Opportunities legislation in full swing, the ElfnSafety people getting hyperactive, employment legislation and protection such as TUPE, Unions could be past their sell-by date and strikes either pointless or counter-productive to their participants' interests. But possibly productive for Union bosses in terms of their profile and their politics. Has the deepest recession for 60 years provided enough pause for thought to re-think something seemingly sacrosanct in labour 'relations'?
Also in the recent past we saw the French getting close to burning more sheep over Sarkozy and la rupture.
Today came news of possible future tube strikes due to non-front line job losses, presumably arising out of Gordon's recession.
Not so long ago employees of the national airline Alitalia were determined to drive their employer off the runway and into a bankruptcy file.
How does any of this militancy help anybody in any real way?
In the UK at least people aren't born with an instant and lifelong right to a job - or the right to set their own employment conditions by holding insolvency over an employer's head. Yet frequent industrial (in)action suggests otherwise.
With Equal Opportunities legislation in full swing, the ElfnSafety people getting hyperactive, employment legislation and protection such as TUPE, Unions could be past their sell-by date and strikes either pointless or counter-productive to their participants' interests. But possibly productive for Union bosses in terms of their profile and their politics. Has the deepest recession for 60 years provided enough pause for thought to re-think something seemingly sacrosanct in labour 'relations'?
tinman0 said:
In the past they had a role to play, but now those rights they fought for are enshrined in legislation.
From personal experience, right enshrined in legislation doesn't mean you'll still get them. Unions have a very useful place making sure you get your rights as an employeeUnions should be great, However in my experience all they do is stick up for the feckless and lazy employees. All this whilst thinking that management all live in some kind of land of milk and honey and exist to screw over "worker". They all tend to be insanely jealous that they were too bloody thick/lazy at school to be able to work in a more senior role.
Unions can be useful especially in an industry with a high staff turnover or manual workers where you can have bosses taking advantage.
They do have a place for keeping the little hitler supervisor in check but useless for the things they get so worked up about.
Does anyone really think any management out there takes the slightest bit of notice of legislation? you are way out of touch if you do.
They do have a place for keeping the little hitler supervisor in check but useless for the things they get so worked up about.
Does anyone really think any management out there takes the slightest bit of notice of legislation? you are way out of touch if you do.
Edited by Sheets Tabuer on Friday 30th January 20:54
They are now pointless in my opinion.
Back in the days when workers were really picked on and had little rights they had a point. Now with all the legislation they are just a nonsense.
It is just a complete nonsense. These workers coming in from Italy and Portugal are not coming from third world countries. They value the fact they need employment to survive and will come to an alien country, on low wage, just to make ends meet.
The fact of the matter is that our workers, as has been for a long time, have been completely deluded towards their value. You have people in this country doing trivial jobs and expect to get paid well over the odds. It is no different to the property market in which a large correction needs to be made. If these guys think they deserve £30k a year or more for doing what someone else will do for £15k they need to give themselves a good shake.
In the end of the day if the UK house price average was in the £190K bracket every average Joe thinks they deserve to be able to afford that.
In general in the UK semi skilled labour is far overpaid and this needs to be changed or this will always happen.
The unions have been the scourge of UK manufacturing industry for years. Demanding more money when it was just not justified. If a company is not making money for X reason going on strike is just not going help the cause.
Rant over.
Back in the days when workers were really picked on and had little rights they had a point. Now with all the legislation they are just a nonsense.
It is just a complete nonsense. These workers coming in from Italy and Portugal are not coming from third world countries. They value the fact they need employment to survive and will come to an alien country, on low wage, just to make ends meet.
The fact of the matter is that our workers, as has been for a long time, have been completely deluded towards their value. You have people in this country doing trivial jobs and expect to get paid well over the odds. It is no different to the property market in which a large correction needs to be made. If these guys think they deserve £30k a year or more for doing what someone else will do for £15k they need to give themselves a good shake.
In the end of the day if the UK house price average was in the £190K bracket every average Joe thinks they deserve to be able to afford that.
In general in the UK semi skilled labour is far overpaid and this needs to be changed or this will always happen.
The unions have been the scourge of UK manufacturing industry for years. Demanding more money when it was just not justified. If a company is not making money for X reason going on strike is just not going help the cause.
Rant over.
deevlash said:
Unions should be great, However in my experience all they do is stick up for the feckless and lazy employees. All this whilst thinking that management all live in some kind of land of milk and honey and exist to screw over "worker". They all tend to be insanely jealous that they were too bloody thick/lazy at school to be able to work in a more senior role.
Well said. Some of those I've encountered on site, especially on the railways, have been the most bitter anti-managment types imaginable despite not knowing the first thing about what their managers actually do. It also seems to me it's usually the ones that will whinge about everything being rubbish and how they deserve this, that and the other, and yet they'll be ultimately lazy and s
te at their job, despite having done it for 35 years, when infact if they were to leave their job they'd see they're as good as unemployable elsewhere and have it very good.turbobloke said:
After Immingham yesterday, today saw unofficial walk-outs at various sites in England, plus others in Scotland and Northern Ireland, linked to workforce flexibility that has led to significant international investment in the UK.
Also in the recent past we saw the French getting close to burning more sheep over Sarkozy and la rupture.
Today came news of possible future tube strikes due to non-front line job losses, presumably arising out of Gordon's recession.
Not so long ago employees of the national airline Alitalia were determined to drive their employer off the runway and into a bankruptcy file.
How does any of this militancy help anybody in any real way?
In the UK at least people aren't born with an instant and lifelong right to a job - or the right to set their own employment conditions by holding insolvency over an employer's head. Yet frequent industrial (in)action suggests otherwise.
With Equal Opportunities legislation in full swing, the ElfnSafety people getting hyperactive, employment legislation and protection such as TUPE, Unions could be past their sell-by date and strikes either pointless or counter-productive to their participants' interests. But possibly productive for Union bosses in terms of their profile and their politics. Has the deepest recession for 60 years provided enough pause for thought to re-think something seemingly sacrosanct in labour 'relations'?
It's a paradox.Also in the recent past we saw the French getting close to burning more sheep over Sarkozy and la rupture.
Today came news of possible future tube strikes due to non-front line job losses, presumably arising out of Gordon's recession.
Not so long ago employees of the national airline Alitalia were determined to drive their employer off the runway and into a bankruptcy file.
How does any of this militancy help anybody in any real way?
In the UK at least people aren't born with an instant and lifelong right to a job - or the right to set their own employment conditions by holding insolvency over an employer's head. Yet frequent industrial (in)action suggests otherwise.
With Equal Opportunities legislation in full swing, the ElfnSafety people getting hyperactive, employment legislation and protection such as TUPE, Unions could be past their sell-by date and strikes either pointless or counter-productive to their participants' interests. But possibly productive for Union bosses in terms of their profile and their politics. Has the deepest recession for 60 years provided enough pause for thought to re-think something seemingly sacrosanct in labour 'relations'?
For the country to become successful again people have to think about others rather than themselves. It's not about finger pointing, just reality, and everyone has the choice.
It's no longer satisfactory to sit pretty and call the growing numbers of unfortunates, scroungers. The reality is that many (but not all) that have been sitting pretty are having to reassess their status as unfortunates. They don't like it. It's an emotional journey.
We're not there yet, but we'll get there or it'll be misery.
There's two kinds of unrest IMO.
There's the unrest on entry to mass misery, then there's the (potentially protracted) misery, and then the unrest before mass ailment/poverty/death.
We're just going into the first barrier now.
Do the unions have a role? It depends if they can achieve selflessness.
Marky Boy said:
They are now pointless in my opinion.
Back in the days when workers were really picked on and had little rights they had a point. Now with all the legislation they are just a nonsense.
Rant over.
That's rubbish. If it were true why do we have people who work in petrol stations coming on here and complaining about money being taken off their wages if they have a drive off theft?Back in the days when workers were really picked on and had little rights they had a point. Now with all the legislation they are just a nonsense.
Rant over.
AS to the rest of your rant, the Italians are not in England working for less wages.
Have a rant if you like but at least get the facts right.
The real problem is, the Italian firm are doing what the UK firms should do, and that's looking after their own. Something a lot of British companies don't do.
Marky Boy said:
They are now pointless in my opinion.
Back in the days when workers were really picked on and had little rights they had a point. Now with all the legislation they are just a nonsense.
It is just a complete nonsense. These workers coming in from Italy and Portugal are not coming from third world countries. They value the fact they need employment to survive and will come to an alien country, on low wage, just to make ends meet.
The fact of the matter is that our workers, as has been for a long time, have been completely deluded towards their value. You have people in this country doing trivial jobs and expect to get paid well over the odds. It is no different to the property market in which a large correction needs to be made. If these guys think they deserve £30k a year or more for doing what someone else will do for £15k they need to give themselves a good shake.
In the end of the day if the UK house price average was in the £190K bracket every average Joe thinks they deserve to be able to afford that.
In general in the UK semi skilled labour is far overpaid and this needs to be changed or this will always happen.
The unions have been the scourge of UK manufacturing industry for years. Demanding more money when it was just not justified. If a company is not making money for X reason going on strike is just not going help the cause.
Rant over.
I'd happily work for half my wage if the cost of living was half as much. Back in the days when workers were really picked on and had little rights they had a point. Now with all the legislation they are just a nonsense.
It is just a complete nonsense. These workers coming in from Italy and Portugal are not coming from third world countries. They value the fact they need employment to survive and will come to an alien country, on low wage, just to make ends meet.
The fact of the matter is that our workers, as has been for a long time, have been completely deluded towards their value. You have people in this country doing trivial jobs and expect to get paid well over the odds. It is no different to the property market in which a large correction needs to be made. If these guys think they deserve £30k a year or more for doing what someone else will do for £15k they need to give themselves a good shake.
In the end of the day if the UK house price average was in the £190K bracket every average Joe thinks they deserve to be able to afford that.
In general in the UK semi skilled labour is far overpaid and this needs to be changed or this will always happen.
The unions have been the scourge of UK manufacturing industry for years. Demanding more money when it was just not justified. If a company is not making money for X reason going on strike is just not going help the cause.
Rant over.
You're quite right. The working man in this country has got ideas above his station.
He should know his place and shouldn't aspire to property ownership. He should be content to have no pride and live in a hovel, wringing his cap and averting his eyes in deference as you pass.
He's getting ideas above his station. What we need is another bloody good war, preferably involving a huge conscript army. That'd teach 'em respect. those that survive would then be content to work from classroom to death for any pittance they're given and be glad of it.
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