Moneyclaim Online

[Scrotum]

Morning Chaps,

Hoping someone could be kind enough to give me some advice on using the moneyclaim website?

Currently I have a customer who is messing me around a lot, I have a feeling that this guys situation is a lot worse than he is telling me and its time to take action before it all goes pear shaped. This man still lives in a large house and drives a nice range rover sport all the time his engineers and other people have not been paid.

So basically he was trading as an ltd company. That ltd company is still trading and owes me around £600.

He also trades as a sole trader. Through this he owes me around £1800.

All work has been invoiced and dated accordingly from me with strict 30 day payment terms on my invoices. The oldest ones go back to July 2007. It’s a long story I do not want to go into here but he has basically messed me around a lied to me since then, like a sucker I persevered and believed him. Now there are no replies to emails or phone calls.

So, it is time to take action. I wish to just file this onto the money claim website.

My questions.

Can I use one claim against him for both companies? Or do I need to do one as an Ltd company and the other as him as a sole trader?

Do I file the ltd company as an organisation and him as a sole trader as in individual.

Do I put the values owed as Inc VAT or exc?

I have plenty of emails from him with promises or payments and excuses. There are no issues or disputes with the work.

Any other tips I need to know before starting this claim?

HELP!

Many Thanks,

Edited by Scrotum on Sunday 1st February 10:51

[Eric Mc]

Both debts are legally separate so you will have to make separate claims for both.

Why not thtreaten him and his company with County Court Judgements (CCJ). They sometimes do the trick.

[Scrotum]

Eric Mc said:

Both debts are legally separate so you will have to make separate claims for both.

Why not thtreaten him and his company with County Court Judgements (CCJ). They sometimes do the trick.

Thanks Eric.

How do i go about making the threat of a CCJ? (i guess im lucky in the fact i have suffered virtually zero bad debt until now so am a total novice at this)

His Father in law is a lawyer, im not sure it would be the first time he has had this threat.

Im not to bothered about costs on the moneyclaim site, i want to try and spure a reaction, hopefully via a cheque that clears!

Edited by Scrotum on Sunday 1st February 11:01

[Eric Mc]

You can download CCJ forms from the internet (just google under "CCJ Forms - UK"). The form needs to be completed and filed with your local county court. There is a small filing fee involved.

The mere threat of a CCJ may be enough to push him into paying.

Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 1st February 11:02

[jazzybee]

Not a legal eagle, but know quite a bit about the site (well at least I did a few years ago)

I would think that you would do two separate claims, I know they cost you but the majority of debtors pay up once they receive the notice from the courts. My guess is, he will at least pay the £1800 as a sole trader reasonably promptly, the £600 through the company may not be so easy if his company is in serious trouble and he is just continuing until someone else tries to force it to close.

[Scrotum]

Thanks guys.

I have told him of my intent to do this and have not recieved any reaction at all. Im going to file this today.

One last question do i put the values as Inc or exc VAT?

Cheers.

[jazzybee]

Scrotum said:

Thanks guys.

I have told him of my intent to do this and have not recieved any reaction at all. Im going to file this today.

One last question do i put the values as Inc or exc VAT?

Cheers.

Yes, I would think including VAT. I'm assuming you've paid it or will have to pay it once you've received the money.

[jamesuk28]

Scrotum said:

1. Can I use one claim against him for both companies? Or do I need to do one as an Ltd company and the other as him as a sole trader?

2. Do I file the ltd company as an organisation and him as a sole trader as in individual.

3. Do I put the values owed as Inc VAT or exc?

4. I have plenty of emails from him with promises or payments and excuses. There are no issues or disputes with the work.

5. Any other tips I need to know before starting this claim?

Edited by Scrotum on Sunday 1st February 10:51

1. Two seperate claims

2. Yes

3. Yes and statutory compensation and interest in the case of the LTD claim

4. Keep them to hand they may be required.

5. Yes, expect to have to enforce any judgement, dont use county court bailiffs as they are pants,

PM Me for any free advice now or in the future.

[skwdenyer]

jamesuk28 said:

Scrotum said:

1. Can I use one claim against him for both companies? Or do I need to do one as an Ltd company and the other as him as a sole trader?

2. Do I file the ltd company as an organisation and him as a sole trader as in individual.

3. Do I put the values owed as Inc VAT or exc?

4. I have plenty of emails from him with promises or payments and excuses. There are no issues or disputes with the work.

5. Any other tips I need to know before starting this claim?

Edited by Scrotum on Sunday 1st February 10:51

1. Two seperate claims

2. Yes

3. Yes and statutory compensation and interest in the case of the LTD claim

4. Keep them to hand they may be required.

5. Yes, expect to have to enforce any judgement, dont use county court bailiffs as they are pants,

PM Me for any free advice now or in the future.

I'm a bit confused by your response to point 3. The legislation refers to "persons", not to companies. The contract must be a commercial contract. There is no restriction as to the class of person to whom it applies - that person can be natural and, so, may be a sole trader.

In fact, there are only a limited number of exceptions. A Consumer Credit contract would be exempt, for instance, but a builder doing work for a householder would be included.

In the OP's case, the individual is a sole trader, and the contract is a commercial one. I have successfully claimed statutory compensation and interest from sole traders in the past. Perhaps I was just lucky? Where specifically is this precluded in your opinion?

[jamesuk28]

skwdenyer said:

jamesuk28 said:

Scrotum said:

1. Can I use one claim against him for both companies? Or do I need to do one as an Ltd company and the other as him as a sole trader?

2. Do I file the ltd company as an organisation and him as a sole trader as in individual.

3. Do I put the values owed as Inc VAT or exc?

4. I have plenty of emails from him with promises or payments and excuses. There are no issues or disputes with the work.

5. Any other tips I need to know before starting this claim?

Edited by Scrotum on Sunday 1st February 10:51

1. Two seperate claims

2. Yes

3. Yes and statutory compensation and interest in the case of the LTD claim

4. Keep them to hand they may be required.

5. Yes, expect to have to enforce any judgement, dont use county court bailiffs as they are pants,

PM Me for any free advice now or in the future.

I'm a bit confused by your response to point 3. The legislation refers to "persons", not to companies. The contract must be a commercial contract. There is no restriction as to the class of person to whom it applies - that person can be natural and, so, may be a sole trader.

In fact, there are only a limited number of exceptions. A Consumer Credit contract would be exempt, for instance, but a builder doing work for a householder would be included.

In the OP's case, the individual is a sole trader, and the contract is a commercial one. I have successfully claimed statutory compensation and interest from sole traders in the past. Perhaps I was just lucky? Where specifically is this precluded in your opinion?

The legislation applies to Business to Business debts, ie Sole traders, Partnerships, LLP's, Ltd companies and PLC's trading with each other. My reply was aimed at B2B debts including sole traders. I misread the OP to read LTD company and personal debts, but well spotted

[Scrotum]

Chaps,

I have filed this today.

The guy in question runs as a sole tradership and as a LTD company.

For the sole tradership debts i have put the idiot in question down as an individual.

I am going to put the LTD debts down tommorow as an organisation.

This needs to be correct, the guy in question married the Daughter of an large well known lawyer (maybe im fked before i begin but i need some hope and faith of justice??.

I have spoken to a fellow engineer tonight who is also owed £1600 from this man under the LTD company also.

How do these people sleep at night?

Edited by Scrotum on Monday 2nd February 21:14

[JustinP1]

Scrotum said:

How do these people sleep at night?

In a big soft expensive bed until someone like you does something about it.

Follow it through. It doesn't matter if his Dad is the Cochran guy that got OJ off if your claim is obvious.

I don't think it is likely that he is going to advertise the fact he is a dodgy sod who doesnt pay his debts to his straight up father in law anyway.

[skwdenyer]

Scrotum said:

Chaps,

I have filed this today.

The guy in question runs as a sole tradership and as a LTD company.

For the sole tradership debts i have put the idiot in question down as an individual.

I am going to put the LTD debts down tommorow as an organisation.

This needs to be correct, the guy in question married the Daughter of an large well known lawyer (maybe im fked before i begin but i need some hope and faith of justice??.

I have spoken to a fellow engineer tonight who is also owed £1600 from this man under the LTD company also.

How do these people sleep at night?

Edited by Scrotum on Monday 2nd February 21:14

Is his Father by any chance a Director or Company Secretary of the LTD company? You can check this at Companies House online (couple of pounds for the report listing names and correspondence addresses (usually home addresses).

I've found in the past that sending a copy of all paperwork to each Director and the Company Secretary at their home addresses (from Companies House) can work wonders. I once cc'd in a couple of Peers of the Realm in one claim against a (well known, so I shan't name them) publishing company - they damn well weren't happy, and payment appeared in a couple of days

A couple of other points. Was there ever any confusion as to whether you were being contracted by the LTD company or the sole trader? If there was, and since you did do work for him as a sole trader, you might be able to claim the whole lot against him as a sole trader. This is good - unlimited liability for him, and you can do everything including putting a Charging Order on his house in order to collect.

Second, you said it had been a long time (2007?) that some of the money was owed to you by the LTD company? Can you say truthfully that you relied upon the personal assurance of a Director of the LTD company that the money would be paid? In writing, preferably? If so, and if the LTD company is wound up, you may still be able to claim against him personally if it can be shown that you didn't take legal action because he promised you would be paid if it then turns out the company wasn't solvent when he told you this. That can be a long-shot, but it can work.

Oh, one last thing, in case he manages to evade you by going personally bankrupt! Since he owes you money, you now have a financial interest in him. That means that, for instance, you can take out a life insurance policy on him for your benefit. Yes it will cost a small amount per month but, when he dies, you get a pay-out! Depending upon how old he is, this might be worth a go - the Father of a friend of mine did this many years ago, paid up a few pounds every month and, one day, did indeed get a pay-out!

[Scrotum]

skwdenyer said:

Scrotum said:

Chaps,

I have filed this today.

The guy in question runs as a sole tradership and as a LTD company.

For the sole tradership debts i have put the idiot in question down as an individual.

I am going to put the LTD debts down tommorow as an organisation.

This needs to be correct, the guy in question married the Daughter of an large well known lawyer (maybe im fked before i begin but i need some hope and faith of justice??.

I have spoken to a fellow engineer tonight who is also owed £1600 from this man under the LTD company also.

How do these people sleep at night?

Edited by Scrotum on Monday 2nd February 21:14

Is his Father by any chance a Director or Company Secretary of the LTD company? You can check this at Companies House online (couple of pounds for the report listing names and correspondence addresses (usually home addresses).

I've found in the past that sending a copy of all paperwork to each Director and the Company Secretary at their home addresses (from Companies House) can work wonders. I once cc'd in a couple of Peers of the Realm in one claim against a (well known, so I shan't name them) publishing company - they damn well weren't happy, and payment appeared in a couple of days

A couple of other points. Was there ever any confusion as to whether you were being contracted by the LTD company or the sole trader? If there was, and since you did do work for him as a sole trader, you might be able to claim the whole lot against him as a sole trader. This is good - unlimited liability for him, and you can do everything including putting a Charging Order on his house in order to collect.

Second, you said it had been a long time (2007?) that some of the money was owed to you by the LTD company? Can you say truthfully that you relied upon the personal assurance of a Director of the LTD company that the money would be paid? In writing, preferably? If so, and if the LTD company is wound up, you may still be able to claim against him personally if it can be shown that you didn't take legal action because he promised you would be paid if it then turns out the company wasn't solvent when he told you this. That can be a long-shot, but it can work.

Oh, one last thing, in case he manages to evade you by going personally bankrupt! Since he owes you money, you now have a financial interest in him. That means that, for instance, you can take out a life insurance policy on him for your benefit. Yes it will cost a small amount per month but, when he dies, you get a pay-out! Depending upon how old he is, this might be worth a go - the Father of a friend of mine did this many years ago, paid up a few pounds every month and, one day, did indeed get a pay-out!

Once again thanks to the people who have taken the time to reply to this - it is much appreciated!!

Basically with regards to this Ltd Company. The company did have other directors. I do not know the full story but he fell out with his partners, they all resigned and walked away from the company. The company was in debt to the main supplier of business (he is a reseller for vehicle tracking products) and he kept the company on wanting to clear the debt. Im not sure if this has happened. His FIL is not a secretary or director BUT his daughter now is. Im sure daddy darling would not want his darling daughter to have a few marks against her name??

I might print my moneyclaim sheet out, attach all invoices and send to each director. (even though they have the company based at the home address now i would send two copies to each director?)

There was never a written contract between us. But the invoices are either made out to the LTD company or him as a sole trader.

I relied totally 100% on his promise to pay me once he had squared the ltd company up financially. It was later he then said to bill him as a sole trader. Im not sure if i have this in writing but i will back track all old emails.

The reason the invoices were never paid from his sole tradership is because he stated that he had never been paid from the main supplier. This is total lies as i have spoken to the main supplier who state they owe him nothing - he has been paid and has simply not paid me.

This man is going to come up with all excuses and crap under the sun not to pay me. The basic fact is he has invoices for jobs completed that have not been paid, the work has been done with no complaints and no payment has ever been recieved from him.

[Taita]

Have you erm, been round to see him? Have a 'stern' word? 'Pay up or CCJs and broken legs'?

[Scrotum]

Taita said:

Have you erm, been round to see him? Have a 'stern' word? 'Pay up or CCJs and broken legs'?

I would like too!! Lets see if the moneyclaim thing stirs him into any sort of payment.

He doesnt answer his phone or reply to emails anymore. He has also switched his voicemail off too.

I get the feeling i am not alone in being owed money.

First class muppet of the highest order!!

[sam.r]

Good luck and let us know the outcome!!

Bad debts are the only thing that royally piss me off in business. Part and parcel I guess but so frustrating!

[skwdenyer]

sam.r said:

Good luck and let us know the outcome!!

Bad debts are the only thing that royally piss me off in business. Part and parcel I guess but so frustrating!

In 9 years I had only £10k (one single bad debt). In the last year you can add another £30k, although credit insurance has stepped in with some of that.

Edited by skwdenyer on Tuesday 3rd February 09:02

[-JUT-]

[any advice given is purely a statement of what I would do in a similar theoretical situation - I'm not personally giving advice on what you should do, obviously...]

I use money claim online, rather than issuing at court. So much faster and easier to get Judgment. Also has an automated process for instructing bailiffs if you do get the Judgment.

If you get the Judgment against a debtor individually, and you know where he lives, personally I would consider conducting a land registry search of his home (£3 online by credit/debit card) and seeing if he owns it. If so, I would apply for a Charging Order (if he is a sole owner) or a Restriction (if he is a joint owner). I would expect for the sake of a fairly small debt, a debtor may pay up to avoid the hassle of having a charge on his property. A debt of, say, £1800 would also be enough for a bankruptcy petition to be issued against a debtor as well... but the costs of doing this are quite high. An application for a charging order costs £55 and registering it with the land registry costs another £40.

As for a debt against a company, I would probably just leave that to the sheriffs in the first instance and see how they get on. Again if the company owns the premises it may be possible to get a Charging Order, but the costs of winding up the company would be much more than £600. If you get a charge and register the charge with companies house and the Land Registry, even if the company is going down the pan, so long as the company has enough equity in the property to satisfy your charge and any other charges that predate yours, you should get your money back...

Edited by -JUT- on Tuesday 10th February 23:04