Orange; ST4 or Five?

[Digga]

I've just returned to mountain biking after a 16 year break. Much to the amusement of other bikers ("respect to the old school dude"), I dusted of the old non-suspension, early 90's vintage Specialized RockHopper and went out for a blast on Cannock Chase on one or two of the new trails.

I really enjoyed the downhill and technical bits, but I noticed everyone now seems to run suspension bikes and I have to admit to having nearly shaken my eyeballs out on some of the steep, rutted downhill sections and also struggled for traction on some uphill stuff. I'm determined to keep slogging away for a month or two on my old bike, to make sure the fad lasts, but I think I will probably want to upgrade.

Given that, before I buy I will take a test ride, and also given that my preference - as with cars - is heavily towards buying British, I was thinking of an Orange. As Cannock Chase is where I' likely to do 99% of my miles - generally gentle, sandstone terrain, with no big rocks or drop-offs - should I go for an ST4 or a Five? I've tried looking on the mountain bike forums, but they seem populated with people who have barely mastered text speak, let alone English. Advice appreciated.

Edited by Digga on Tuesday 3rd February 18:21

[JPJ]

The ST4 is very similar to one of the Commencal range, but slightly heavier. It's got reasonable reviews for it's handling, but the weight has always marked it down as it's a relatively short travel full sus bike, most of that market are more race-oriented and therefore a little lighter. The 5 however is a brilliant bike, collecting fantastic reviews from all the magazines. It will serve you well at Cannock, but will also manage bigger riding in the trail centres in Wales, Scotland and the north of England. The othe rbonus is it's a relatively simple design so less to go wrong, and being designed in Britain means it makes allowances for mud and the usual rubbish we have to ride through.

Whatever you do, get a test ride. Outside of the Oranges you could look at Pace or the Cotic Hemlock for British-ness, but don't immediately shy away from the foreign manufacturers. There are some very good bikes out there.

[Digga]

So the ST4 is actually slightly heavier than the five then?

I know the difference in suspension travel is unlikely to be a factor for most of my riding, but weight is a consideration. It's almost impossible to find any weight data on these bikes...

[Malam]

I nearly bought an '09 ST4 at the beginning on January, but after doing some research and asking around on the various mtb forums- I found that there were much better bikes for the same money.

I ended up buying an '09 Cannondale Rush 4 Carbon. No regrets at all...



In comparison to the Orange ST4-S, the spec is pretty similar. On the plus size, it's much lighter- Carbon frame, has better forks, better chainset etc

You can't really go wrong with a 'dale

[JPJ]

Oops, sorry as it doesn't sound like I was very clear. The ST4 isn't heavier than the Five (or at least I don't think it is), but it is heavier than the Commencal that it looks the spitting image of.

I agree that finding the weight of Orange bikes seems like getting blood out of a stone.

[Malam]

ST4 is close to 27lbs I believe.

[.Adam.]

I really like my 5, and would recommend it to anyone, but another could be a Pace? Don't know how they ride, but have always fancied one since the square tubed frames and carbon RC35's they did in the 90's.

Edited by .Adam. on Tuesday 3rd February 22:41

[Gooby]

This is already turning into a "this is my bike and it is superb" thread so I will join in.
I have an Orange 5 SE (plus some buhling) and I have played on a ST4. Both are very impressive. I find the 5 was more rugged and offered far more suspension travel. The ST4 is an XC bike, the 5 is all mountain.

[R.P.M]

Good decision with leaving it a few months, you need to make sure what type of riding you will be doing. You don't want to get the bug bad, and then find out you have bought the wrong machine!


I have to agree with you on the British thing to a point, but I have to say as a first modern mountain bike, there are plenty of other better value bikes out there that would be perfect for you.


Rpm

[custardkid]

5 all the way, been riding my sub5 for the last 4 years, brilliant bike! its been ridden hard but all original bits going strong except for a rear mech (branch), headset and wheel bearings (although the pivot bearings are on the way out, but cheap and easy to replace). would highly recommend it for trail centre riding, combination of fox and hope kit means low maintenance. as mine is an 04 bike it has 100mm forks, 140mm forks would be better, but I think that’s standard now?

'dales are a bit fashion before performance in my book,.... the missus rides one FFS
and carbon is good for road bikes, but would worry that on a mtb on crash would mean gameover, where as a steel or ally bike would just get a dent.....

good luck and keep riding!
custard

[mk1fan]

Unless you're a top end pro rider with a body fat of less than 3% then I wouldn't worry about the weight difference between the two bikes you've mentioned.

Of the two I'd lean more to the Five. Simply because it is a more versatile machine that is more capable over a wider spread of mtb disciplines.

That said you may want to try a long travel hardtail too - like a Dialled Bikes Prince Albert or Alpine, the On-One Inbred 456, the Orange P7 or Cotic Soul. I'm not sure whether the DMR Tailmaster is available as a fully built bike but that weighs the same as the moon so I wouldn't consider it. Genesis also do a nice range of HT's too with both normal and hub gear options. The Pipedreams Sirus is a very good frame but is only rated for upto 100mm travel forks.

All I've mentioned are 'British' designed and commisioned bikes but the frames are made in the Far East.

If you want manufactured in Britain, outside of Orange you've got Chas Roberts and a few other bespoke ultra low volume frame builders.

In the meantime try swapping the tyres on your current bike for some 2.1's or 2.35's if they fit. Additionally, you could try and fit some carbon fibre or titanium handlebars and seatpost. Won't be the same as proper suspension but will certainly remove a lot of trail 'buzz'. I appreciate that cost may stop you doing this.

[Digga]

Thanks all for the superb advice.

Prior to getting into sprinting, hillclimbing and trackdaying TVRs - which spelled the end of my initial mountain biking - I had always wanted an Orange, and as I said in the original post, I do like to buy British, so that bit is set in stone.

The consensus seems to be that the five is a better long term bet, which is what I first though, although I have no doubt that for local riding on Cannock Chase, the ST4 is probably more than adequate. The grease monkey at the local Orange dealer seemed to suggest I'd be better off with an ST4...

I think first priority is to get 'bike fit'. At the moment I reckon I could cross coutnry run 3 miles using less calories than riding! Then second i need to get the 'technique' back. I'm sure I can get more from the bike I have, as it is - although I'm sure my interventing years of 'opposite lockery' have endowed me with a few tricks and a level of 'balance' I didn't previously posses.

[MTY4000]

I've got a Pace RC405, its a great ride (like the picture above.. but in a pewter / titanium colour).

Buying british was an important thing for me too, however I was a bit miffed when I found out that the Pace frame is made abroard (took ages to arive due to shipping issues..). Orange frames are still made in the UK I think.

You can get a rolling chasis option with pace, with a discounted fork and wheel set.. however it will work out more expensive than Orange if you need to buy the components for it seperately.

[.Adam.]

MTY4000 said:

Orange frames are still made in the UK I think.

I believe that only their f/s frames are handmade in Halifax, there hardtails are made abroad.

[Digga]

.Adam. said:

MTY4000 said:

Orange frames are still made in the UK I think.

I believe that only their f/s frames are handmade in Halifax, there hardtails are made abroad.

Yes, that's what I understand, although I'm not sure whether they're going to move these to UK production too (especially now sterling's tanked ) in the near future. And of course adding Hope components too, it's no hardship to get a few more British built bits on there.

[Gooby]

custardkid said:

5 all the way, been riding my sub5 for the last 4 years, brilliant bike! its been ridden hard but all original bits going strong except for a rear mech (branch), headset and wheel bearings (although the pivot bearings are on the way out, but cheap and easy to replace). would highly recommend it for trail centre riding, combination of fox and hope kit means low maintenance. as mine is an 04 bike it has 100mm forks, 140mm forks would be better, but I think that’s standard now?

'dales are a bit fashion before performance in my book,.... the missus rides one FFS
and carbon is good for road bikes, but would worry that on a mtb on crash would mean gameover, where as a steel or ally bike would just get a dent.....

good luck and keep riding!
custard

Completly agree.
I dont think carbon has a great place in MTB's. I had a CF Giant and it was a brilliant bike but a minor crash wrote off the frame. A good friend of mine just spent £6.5k on a CF yeti, the frame just calapsed above the front mech and yeti will not honor the warranty. £4.5k frame is ruined.

Orange is rugged as hell. My XTR kit has gone south a few times but anything orange never stops.
Also, orange are made for british trails. friends have trouble with Treks because they are not designed for british clag and they dont have decent mud clearence. The only change I would make to my 5 is some sort of protection for the front mech and it seems to collect mud too easily.

[Digga]

Gooby said:

custardkid said:

5 all the way, been riding my sub5 for the last 4 years, brilliant bike! its been ridden hard but all original bits going strong except for a rear mech (branch), headset and wheel bearings (although the pivot bearings are on the way out, but cheap and easy to replace). would highly recommend it for trail centre riding, combination of fox and hope kit means low maintenance. as mine is an 04 bike it has 100mm forks, 140mm forks would be better, but I think that’s standard now?

'dales are a bit fashion before performance in my book,.... the missus rides one FFS
and carbon is good for road bikes, but would worry that on a mtb on crash would mean gameover, where as a steel or ally bike would just get a dent.....

good luck and keep riding!
custard

Completly agree.
I dont think carbon has a great place in MTB's. I had a CF Giant and it was a brilliant bike but a minor crash wrote off the frame. A good friend of mine just spent £6.5k on a CF yeti, the frame just calapsed above the front mech and yeti will not honor the warranty. £4.5k frame is ruined.

Orange is rugged as hell. My XTR kit has gone south a few times but anything orange never stops.
Also, orange are made for british trails. friends have trouble with Treks because they are not designed for british clag and they dont have decent mud clearence. The only change I would make to my 5 is some sort of protection for the front mech and it seems to collect mud too easily.

No, and I can't get it welded in our workshops if I wrap the bike around some suitably robust bit of scenery.

[CooperS]

Gooby said:

This is already turning into a "this is my bike and it is superb" thread so I will join in.
I have an Orange 5 SE (plus some buhling) and I have played on a ST4. Both are very impressive. I find the 5 was more rugged and offered far more suspension travel. The ST4 is an XC bike, the 5 is all mountain.

Mines in apple green (think lambo green) and its fantastic!

Really good in all aspects, however its my first proper bike so haven't got much to compare it with.

[Gooby]

CooperS said:

Gooby said:

This is already turning into a "this is my bike and it is superb" thread so I will join in.
I have an Orange 5 SE (plus some buhling) and I have played on a ST4. Both are very impressive. I find the 5 was more rugged and offered far more suspension travel. The ST4 is an XC bike, the 5 is all mountain.

Mines in apple green (think lambo green) and its fantastic!

Really good in all aspects, however its my first proper bike so haven't got much to compare it with.

Mine is "occasional" blue to match the other garage occupant. Usually found in "trail mud brown"...

[Gooby]

Malam said:

ST4 is close to 27lbs I believe.

My 5 is less than 27lbs.