Solar panels - anyone got them?
Discussion
What's the best type to go for?
I'm getting a bit confused
There are flat type ones and tube like ones.
I'm also after advise on the different types of hot water cylinders that are compatible with them.
What do you think of this one? http://gasapplianceguide.co.uk/gledhill_torrent_so...
btw, although my profile says plumber but, that's industrial and involves mainly pipe fitting. If you want a Dry Cleaning unit installed, I'm your man! however, my domestic knowledge is rather limited
I'm getting a bit confused
There are flat type ones and tube like ones.
I'm also after advise on the different types of hot water cylinders that are compatible with them.
What do you think of this one? http://gasapplianceguide.co.uk/gledhill_torrent_so...
btw, although my profile says plumber but, that's industrial and involves mainly pipe fitting. If you want a Dry Cleaning unit installed, I'm your man! however, my domestic knowledge is rather limited
Edited by gtr-gaz on Tuesday 10th February 18:44
I am afraid as far as I am concerned they do not make economic sense, and furthermore, the units themselves are, as I understand it, not terribly recyclable and actually quite damaging environmentally speaking.....
When a fellow tried to sell me some and I told him that, he didn't deny it... I think it's nickel in there or something...
When a fellow tried to sell me some and I told him that, he didn't deny it... I think it's nickel in there or something...
We looked at putting some on the roof of a new extension that we're just about finished.
The solar panels were going to be doing just hot water - with a tank of about 200-300Lts. I looked at the cost and the potential for savings. We opted to build without doing it - just wasn't economical and that was when gas prices were at their highest.
Price was in the order of £3,500 for a 24 tube evacuated collector (1.8x1.9m).
The only good thing it had going for it was VAT was only at 5%.
I also enquired to a German friend who does these for a living but they seem to inlcude water for central heating as well which means that the tank is of the order of 1000Lts !! That knocked the price up to something in the region of 11K !!
The solar panels were going to be doing just hot water - with a tank of about 200-300Lts. I looked at the cost and the potential for savings. We opted to build without doing it - just wasn't economical and that was when gas prices were at their highest.
Price was in the order of £3,500 for a 24 tube evacuated collector (1.8x1.9m).
The only good thing it had going for it was VAT was only at 5%.
I also enquired to a German friend who does these for a living but they seem to inlcude water for central heating as well which means that the tank is of the order of 1000Lts !! That knocked the price up to something in the region of 11K !!
gtr-gaz said:
What's the best type to go for?
I presume you're talking about solar hot water heaters as Photovoltaic cells are horrendously expensive with an enormously long payback period.Our heating company use a combo solar/tank pack that runs to a couple of thousand. I can find out the details if you're interested.
Jasandjules said:
I am afraid as far as I am concerned they do not make economic sense, and furthermore, the units themselves are, as I understand it, not terribly recyclable and actually quite damaging environmentally speaking.....
When a fellow tried to sell me some and I told him that, he didn't deny it... I think it's nickel in there or something...
Sounds like you're talking about Solar PV (photovoltaic). Solar Thermal (hot water) have a better payback period (though still many years) and aren't particularly environmentally damaging to manufacture, or difficult to recycle.When a fellow tried to sell me some and I told him that, he didn't deny it... I think it's nickel in there or something...
Suggest you head over to http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/ for the experts. Not that there aren't any experts here, its just our anoraks have slightly less polyester in them the the Navitron lot.
Well, thanks for the input so far.
I know they take a long time to recoup the outlay but, I have heard that it also puts extra value on the house. A bit like a conservatory, garden landscaping, that sort of thing. Do you think that might be true?
btw, I am thinking of running them through the boiler to help reduce heating costs as well as hot water
ETA, it's not the electrikery type I want, just hot water!
Cheers
I know they take a long time to recoup the outlay but, I have heard that it also puts extra value on the house. A bit like a conservatory, garden landscaping, that sort of thing. Do you think that might be true?
btw, I am thinking of running them through the boiler to help reduce heating costs as well as hot water
ETA, it's not the electrikery type I want, just hot water!
Cheers
Edited by gtr-gaz on Tuesday 10th February 19:26
Sam_68 said:
Jasandjules said:
I am afraid as far as I am concerned they do not make economic sense, and furthermore, the units themselves are, as I understand it, not terribly recyclable and actually quite damaging environmentally speaking.....
When a fellow tried to sell me some and I told him that, he didn't deny it... I think it's nickel in there or something...
Sounds like you're talking about Solar PV (photovoltaic). Solar Thermal (hot water) have a better payback period (though still many years) and aren't particularly environmentally damaging to manufacture, or difficult to recycle.When a fellow tried to sell me some and I told him that, he didn't deny it... I think it's nickel in there or something...
I've got solar........and a hot water heat pump.
Solar is all about energy storage, you have to collect and store the sun when it's available - which in the UK is not a great deal. And then raise the temperature of the water by conventional means when there isn't enough sun (and that process is not straight forward).
Even in the best parts of the UK you are unlikely to get 1500 hours of sunshine a year. Collecting it, storing it, ensuring you have hot water when you want - catering for freezing and boiling - it all costs money - and the law of diminishing returns applies. Percentage savings reduce as you spend extra money.
In round figures each person uses 1250 kW hours of energy in heating water each year.
For a family home you would need as a minimum 4 square metres of panels or 24 evacuated tubes. Plus a cylinder of at least 270 litres. If you were careful, and it was all set up right - you could expect to save say 2000kW hours a year. The remaining 3000kW (with a 4 person household) would have to be gas or electric. If you could have a solar system installed for two thousand pounds, it may save you 2000kW hours - you will have to work out with your cost of energy if it's worthwhile.
Even in New Zealand, where we have about 2000 hours of sun, solar is marginal, often with a ten year payback. A hot water heat pump (basically an air conditioning unit in heating mode) gives a better payback, at around 5 years, but again this is under NZ conditions where most of the country has winter daytime temperatures well above freezing.
To make my solar system work well involved an extra cylinder plus the solar itself, about three thousand pounds. This saves about half my hot water costs. The hot water heat pump tops up the solar - costs under fifteen hundred installed - and on its own would save about two thirds of hot water heating costs. Combine the two systems and I save about 80% in total.
So, work some figures out, and either be prepared to spend a lot of money chasing big savings, or spend less and have a realistic payback period. However, even under ideal circumstances I would doubt you would get more than a 10% rate of return with solar.
Solar is all about energy storage, you have to collect and store the sun when it's available - which in the UK is not a great deal. And then raise the temperature of the water by conventional means when there isn't enough sun (and that process is not straight forward).
Even in the best parts of the UK you are unlikely to get 1500 hours of sunshine a year. Collecting it, storing it, ensuring you have hot water when you want - catering for freezing and boiling - it all costs money - and the law of diminishing returns applies. Percentage savings reduce as you spend extra money.
In round figures each person uses 1250 kW hours of energy in heating water each year.
For a family home you would need as a minimum 4 square metres of panels or 24 evacuated tubes. Plus a cylinder of at least 270 litres. If you were careful, and it was all set up right - you could expect to save say 2000kW hours a year. The remaining 3000kW (with a 4 person household) would have to be gas or electric. If you could have a solar system installed for two thousand pounds, it may save you 2000kW hours - you will have to work out with your cost of energy if it's worthwhile.
Even in New Zealand, where we have about 2000 hours of sun, solar is marginal, often with a ten year payback. A hot water heat pump (basically an air conditioning unit in heating mode) gives a better payback, at around 5 years, but again this is under NZ conditions where most of the country has winter daytime temperatures well above freezing.
To make my solar system work well involved an extra cylinder plus the solar itself, about three thousand pounds. This saves about half my hot water costs. The hot water heat pump tops up the solar - costs under fifteen hundred installed - and on its own would save about two thirds of hot water heating costs. Combine the two systems and I save about 80% in total.
So, work some figures out, and either be prepared to spend a lot of money chasing big savings, or spend less and have a realistic payback period. However, even under ideal circumstances I would doubt you would get more than a 10% rate of return with solar.
esselte said:
Sam_68 said:
Solar Thermal (hot water) have a better payback period (though still many years) and aren't particularly environmentally damaging to manufacture, or difficult to recycle.
Do they last long enough to give a payback?Yoy can knock them up youself at home if you have reasonable DIY skills, and you can make them as robust as you like. No reason they shouldn't out-last the roof they're bolted to.
first of all DON'T DO IT
ok we got that, but why
about a year/18 months ago we had a system fitted to the house, the system is basically 20 tubes (the tubes go on the roof, normally come in a set of 10 or 15, and you could, in theory have as many as you want) we were first quoted for 30, but the company changed that,telling us that we wouldn't need that many, we believed them, partly because there so called experts, all they do is solar systems/panels and because as we would have to pay for the tubes we would be paying less, so it wasnt like they were ripping us off by reducing the number of tubes
in the garage we have the cylinder, the expantion tank for the liquid thats in the tubes and the system (its some kind of antifreeze like liquid i think)
and the pumps and vavle bits mounted on the wall.
in the hall we have a screen which tells you how itw working, or how its not working
the cylinder has to coils in it (normal cyclinders have one from your boiler)
the boiler cyclinder is half way up the tank, so we can only heat half the tank with the boiler, as heat rises, so we have less hot water now than before
the solar coil is at the bottom, but its irelevant because it doesn't do much
are you still with me? just in case you missed it earlier DON'T DO IT
the company we bought the system from still wont recognise that there is a problem with the system, and don't answer calls
i can't name them because of the name and shame policy, and because we have an ongoing dispute with them
but they thought they were very smart and that the system would produce lots of energy
but unfortunantly the system isn't very smart and we didn't get much energy
so it doesnt work, so i'd reconmend you DON'T DO IT
but why did we get it
my parents run there own business and were looking at retiring, obviously this would mean they would have less income, so the plan was that the system could be payed for before they retire (when they have money) and they would effectivly get some free hot water in the summer
we never expected to make our money back on the system, but we did expect it to at least work to a degree
so, after al this, was it expensive? well yes over £7,000 for the system and partial fitting, we fitted some to try and keep the costs down (like running the pipe from the loft to the garage)
could it have been worse? no
burning the money would have been better, at least we would have had some heat
so, in conclusion DON'T DO IT
if your interested, i can get some pictures so you know the kind of system im talking about
i have to say for us, this has really put us off "green" energy completly
id like it to work, i can see that the theory is there, but it just doesn't
maybe in a really hot, desert like country it might work but not here
doug
did i mention don't do it?
ok we got that, but why
about a year/18 months ago we had a system fitted to the house, the system is basically 20 tubes (the tubes go on the roof, normally come in a set of 10 or 15, and you could, in theory have as many as you want) we were first quoted for 30, but the company changed that,telling us that we wouldn't need that many, we believed them, partly because there so called experts, all they do is solar systems/panels and because as we would have to pay for the tubes we would be paying less, so it wasnt like they were ripping us off by reducing the number of tubes
in the garage we have the cylinder, the expantion tank for the liquid thats in the tubes and the system (its some kind of antifreeze like liquid i think)
and the pumps and vavle bits mounted on the wall.
in the hall we have a screen which tells you how itw working, or how its not working
the cylinder has to coils in it (normal cyclinders have one from your boiler)
the boiler cyclinder is half way up the tank, so we can only heat half the tank with the boiler, as heat rises, so we have less hot water now than before
the solar coil is at the bottom, but its irelevant because it doesn't do much
are you still with me? just in case you missed it earlier DON'T DO IT
the company we bought the system from still wont recognise that there is a problem with the system, and don't answer calls
i can't name them because of the name and shame policy, and because we have an ongoing dispute with them
but they thought they were very smart and that the system would produce lots of energy
but unfortunantly the system isn't very smart and we didn't get much energy
so it doesnt work, so i'd reconmend you DON'T DO IT
but why did we get it
my parents run there own business and were looking at retiring, obviously this would mean they would have less income, so the plan was that the system could be payed for before they retire (when they have money) and they would effectivly get some free hot water in the summer
we never expected to make our money back on the system, but we did expect it to at least work to a degree
so, after al this, was it expensive? well yes over £7,000 for the system and partial fitting, we fitted some to try and keep the costs down (like running the pipe from the loft to the garage)
could it have been worse? no
burning the money would have been better, at least we would have had some heat
so, in conclusion DON'T DO IT
if your interested, i can get some pictures so you know the kind of system im talking about
i have to say for us, this has really put us off "green" energy completly
id like it to work, i can see that the theory is there, but it just doesn't
maybe in a really hot, desert like country it might work but not here
doug
did i mention don't do it?
dugt said:
lots of stuff
Sorry to say, but it sounds like your parents have been royally ripped off by a bunch of cowboys.That doesn't mean solar energy is a complete non starter, much as it may seem the case from your perspective.
From what I've been told from people who have solar/heatpump supplemented supplies, jaybkay's post a bit before yours sounds a lot closer to the mark.
If the company you used came with glowing recommendations then I sympathise.
I know if I was looking at that sort of outlay on something I'd make damn sure it was going to deliver independant of the company involved by way of detailed specs in written quotes.
That way if something goes wrong you've got a leg to stand on.
Disco_Dale said:
dugt said:
lots of stuff
Sorry to say, but it sounds like your parents have been royally ripped off by a bunch of cowboys.That doesn't mean solar energy is a complete non starter, much as it may seem the case from your perspective.
From what I've been told from people who have solar/heatpump supplemented supplies, jaybkay's post a bit before yours sounds a lot closer to the mark.
If the company you used came with glowing recommendations then I sympathise.
I know if I was looking at that sort of outlay on something I'd make damn sure it was going to deliver independant of the company involved by way of detailed specs in written quotes.
That way if something goes wrong you've got a leg to stand on.
the people we delt with were crap, and were still in a dispute shall we say so im not sure what the out come will be
personaly, id say save your money, because the solar panels/tubes wont pay for them selves, even in over 10 years
if anyone has got a system/is getting a system, i wish you the best of luck with it and hope its ok
doug
OK I'll come in with some positives here.
I have an old farmhouse with horrific annual oil bills (at July 08 Prices about £3.5K per year). This year I spent £7K split between solar water heating and a new woodburner with a back boiler. The solar went in mid August and the new woodburner mid October. From my calculations we would save approx £2K a year on oil, but have to spend £400 on additional wood. So the payback was around 5 years. Oil prices have obviously fallen so currently the payback is a little longer, but by Christmas I'd only used 2/3 of a tank of oil (normally use 3.5 per year).
The solar water system was installed by Justin Walters, www.jwsolarsolutions.co.uk , who I just can't recommend highly enough (No grant involved, as it's obvious that the 'grant' suppliers are jacking their prices up!) We paid around £3.5K for the following:-
2 x 20 58mm roof arrays, approx 8sqm
New Hot Water Cylinder 250litres with solar coil, it's important to have a large cylinder to ensure that you have 2/3 days worth of hot water.
Pumps/Controllers/Dump Radiator/etc
All Installation
Most of the hardware came from www.eco-nomical.co.uk
The system has worked really well. We did not switch the oil on to heat hot water for a two month period (except when my 7yo son accidently drained the tank!) and even on some 'sunny' days in December we were ending the day with a full tank of solar heated hot water at around 55 degrees. Even yesterday the solar lifted the base temperature of the tank to around 30 degrees, meaning that my combined wood/oil systems don't have so much work to do.
Now my circumstances are slightly special in that we had large oil bills, and I would suggest that anyone who is on oil or LPG type heating and who has a decent south facing roof consider solar hot water heating. If you are no mains gas the situation (payback time) could be very different.
There is a cheaper type, the solar twin type which piggybacks onto your existing tank, but this is not as efficient in mild weather as the evacuated tubes. If you want to do it really cheap such on the Its Not Easy Being Green Forum for DIY Solar Twin.
Hope that helps
davidy
I have an old farmhouse with horrific annual oil bills (at July 08 Prices about £3.5K per year). This year I spent £7K split between solar water heating and a new woodburner with a back boiler. The solar went in mid August and the new woodburner mid October. From my calculations we would save approx £2K a year on oil, but have to spend £400 on additional wood. So the payback was around 5 years. Oil prices have obviously fallen so currently the payback is a little longer, but by Christmas I'd only used 2/3 of a tank of oil (normally use 3.5 per year).
The solar water system was installed by Justin Walters, www.jwsolarsolutions.co.uk , who I just can't recommend highly enough (No grant involved, as it's obvious that the 'grant' suppliers are jacking their prices up!) We paid around £3.5K for the following:-
2 x 20 58mm roof arrays, approx 8sqm
New Hot Water Cylinder 250litres with solar coil, it's important to have a large cylinder to ensure that you have 2/3 days worth of hot water.
Pumps/Controllers/Dump Radiator/etc
All Installation
Most of the hardware came from www.eco-nomical.co.uk
The system has worked really well. We did not switch the oil on to heat hot water for a two month period (except when my 7yo son accidently drained the tank!) and even on some 'sunny' days in December we were ending the day with a full tank of solar heated hot water at around 55 degrees. Even yesterday the solar lifted the base temperature of the tank to around 30 degrees, meaning that my combined wood/oil systems don't have so much work to do.
Now my circumstances are slightly special in that we had large oil bills, and I would suggest that anyone who is on oil or LPG type heating and who has a decent south facing roof consider solar hot water heating. If you are no mains gas the situation (payback time) could be very different.
There is a cheaper type, the solar twin type which piggybacks onto your existing tank, but this is not as efficient in mild weather as the evacuated tubes. If you want to do it really cheap such on the Its Not Easy Being Green Forum for DIY Solar Twin.
Hope that helps
davidy
Dugt, I can see you had a bit of a problem, or rather a lot of a problem. It's a shame the suppliers didn't apply more logic to their efforts - as you have a system that suffers from the usual lack of thought. Your hot water supply (without any solar), should have been a normal size - ie say 270 litre for four people. Solar capacity should then have been added in addition to this, either with a bigger cylinder, say 500 litre - or an additional cylinder. And yes in the UK probably 30 tubes.
The solar would have acted as a preheat, increased efficiency without any loss of capacity.
Perhaps I should come back and start installing hot water heat pumps, (they can be as little as fifteen hundred pounds installed), and in UK conditions save about 60% of water heating costs (compared with electricity). On second thoughts just remind me, who is the PM these days? You didn't get rid of Tony Bliar for Gordon Mcbroon did you?
The solar would have acted as a preheat, increased efficiency without any loss of capacity.
Perhaps I should come back and start installing hot water heat pumps, (they can be as little as fifteen hundred pounds installed), and in UK conditions save about 60% of water heating costs (compared with electricity). On second thoughts just remind me, who is the PM these days? You didn't get rid of Tony Bliar for Gordon Mcbroon did you?
jaybkay said:
Dugt, I can see you had a bit of a problem, or rather a lot of a problem. It's a shame the suppliers didn't apply more logic to their efforts - as you have a system that suffers from the usual lack of thought. Your hot water supply (without any solar), should have been a normal size - ie say 270 litre for four people. Solar capacity should then have been added in addition to this, either with a bigger cylinder, say 500 litre - or an additional cylinder. And yes in the UK probably 30 tubes.
The solar would have acted as a preheat, increased efficiency without any loss of capacity.
Perhaps I should come back and start installing hot water heat pumps, (they can be as little as fifteen hundred pounds installed), and in UK conditions save about 60% of water heating costs (compared with electricity). On second thoughts just remind me, who is the PM these days? You didn't get rid of Tony Bliar for Gordon Mcbroon did you?
i think the problem really was that our house used to be a 3 bed detachedThe solar would have acted as a preheat, increased efficiency without any loss of capacity.
Perhaps I should come back and start installing hot water heat pumps, (they can be as little as fifteen hundred pounds installed), and in UK conditions save about 60% of water heating costs (compared with electricity). On second thoughts just remind me, who is the PM these days? You didn't get rid of Tony Bliar for Gordon Mcbroon did you?
we bought it about 17 years ago, and 15 years ago extended it into a 5 bed detatched, but basicall nearly doubling the size
the hot water system/heating was still original so they assumed that we would want the same size tank when we should of had a bigger one
as for gordon brown, you can't blame us for that, no one actually voted for him , no one actually wanted him.
he just seemed to take the lead and no one stopped him
doug
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