How important is freedom of speech?
Discussion
A thread the other day about the Dutch Wilder bloke (outspoken bigot muslim hater) posed an interesting question about freedom of speech
THere was a common feeling on the thread that he should have been allowed in the country because freedom of speech is so important to our society.
I don't know my thoughts on the subject. I believe that if he should be allowed to talk then so should Abu Hamza and other muslim race hate preachers but I can't decide whether it is right or wrong to let them all preach.
On balance I think sod them all. I dont think we lose anything as a society from censoring people like that and stand to lose a fair bit if we don't.
Do many people actually disagree with that?
THere was a common feeling on the thread that he should have been allowed in the country because freedom of speech is so important to our society.
I don't know my thoughts on the subject. I believe that if he should be allowed to talk then so should Abu Hamza and other muslim race hate preachers but I can't decide whether it is right or wrong to let them all preach.
On balance I think sod them all. I dont think we lose anything as a society from censoring people like that and stand to lose a fair bit if we don't.
Do many people actually disagree with that?
Censorship has never worked.
Freedom of speech is paramount. Let Wilder and Abu speak and let ppl make up their own minds that these ppl are prats. I work and know a lot Asians and Muslims and none of them spout any extreme views at all, in fact I would say they all count themselves as normal Brummies and then add on their religion. Ppl dont listen to muppets like Abu because he is Muslim or Asian or because of their religion, they listen to him because they already *want* to believe what he is saying. Asians and Muslims arent genetically predisposed to be extreme, the vast of majority of them are more than willing to label the guy an arse and ignore him. So let him speak and let more ppl realise he is a fool. The same deluded few will still want to believe in him up until their own issues are sorted out. Wilder similarly will only have advocates amongst those who want to believe what he is telling them, the rest of us rather think he makes himself look foolish, but that doesnt stop him from having the right to say it. The last time I looked aswell he wasnt advocating anybody conducts a holy war or ethnic clensing campaign which kind of makes what he is saying about as radical as Jonathon Ross. Hmm, actually now that I think about it, maybe freedom of speech is a bad thing!
Freedom of speech is paramount. Let Wilder and Abu speak and let ppl make up their own minds that these ppl are prats. I work and know a lot Asians and Muslims and none of them spout any extreme views at all, in fact I would say they all count themselves as normal Brummies and then add on their religion. Ppl dont listen to muppets like Abu because he is Muslim or Asian or because of their religion, they listen to him because they already *want* to believe what he is saying. Asians and Muslims arent genetically predisposed to be extreme, the vast of majority of them are more than willing to label the guy an arse and ignore him. So let him speak and let more ppl realise he is a fool. The same deluded few will still want to believe in him up until their own issues are sorted out. Wilder similarly will only have advocates amongst those who want to believe what he is telling them, the rest of us rather think he makes himself look foolish, but that doesnt stop him from having the right to say it. The last time I looked aswell he wasnt advocating anybody conducts a holy war or ethnic clensing campaign which kind of makes what he is saying about as radical as Jonathon Ross. Hmm, actually now that I think about it, maybe freedom of speech is a bad thing!
ianash said:
I think freedom of speech is fundamental to our wider freedoms. However, I do draw the distinction between speaking controversial or unpopular views and inciting violence. The latter is illegal and rightly so.
Ah, but the grey area is inciting hatred which is the phrase of the moment.Do you think that is OK?WHile I hate censorship I think there are too many people who are ready to believe anything without checking facts as long as it is written down or on tv. It disturbs me a little how seriously some very dangerous people are taken.
DJC said:
Censorship has never worked.
Freedom of speech is paramount. Let Wilder and Abu speak and let ppl make up their own minds that these ppl are prats. I work and know a lot Asians and Muslims and none of them spout any extreme views at all, in fact I would say they all count themselves as normal Brummies and then add on their religion. Ppl dont listen to muppets like Abu because he is Muslim or Asian or because of their religion, they listen to him because they already *want* to believe what he is saying. Asians and Muslims arent genetically predisposed to be extreme, the vast of majority of them are more than willing to label the guy an arse and ignore him. So let him speak and let more ppl realise he is a fool. The same deluded few will still want to believe in him up until their own issues are sorted out. Wilder similarly will only have advocates amongst those who want to believe what he is telling them, the rest of us rather think he makes himself look foolish, but that doesnt stop him from having the right to say it. !
I disagree with both your spelling of "people" and the premise of your post.Freedom of speech is paramount. Let Wilder and Abu speak and let ppl make up their own minds that these ppl are prats. I work and know a lot Asians and Muslims and none of them spout any extreme views at all, in fact I would say they all count themselves as normal Brummies and then add on their religion. Ppl dont listen to muppets like Abu because he is Muslim or Asian or because of their religion, they listen to him because they already *want* to believe what he is saying. Asians and Muslims arent genetically predisposed to be extreme, the vast of majority of them are more than willing to label the guy an arse and ignore him. So let him speak and let more ppl realise he is a fool. The same deluded few will still want to believe in him up until their own issues are sorted out. Wilder similarly will only have advocates amongst those who want to believe what he is telling them, the rest of us rather think he makes himself look foolish, but that doesnt stop him from having the right to say it. !
I dont agree that the people who take them seriously do so because they want to. I think that thought process comes from someone in the first place. You are not born with that view thus the more people preach hatred the more ingrained it will become in the young and impressionable.
Edited by blindswelledrat on Monday 16th February 09:43
blindswelledrat said:
A thread the other day about the Dutch Wilder bloke (outspoken bigot muslim hater) posed an interesting question about freedom of speech
THere was a common feeling on the thread that he should have been allowed in the country because freedom of speech is so important to our society.
I don't know my thoughts on the subject. I believe that if he should be allowed to talk then so should Abu Hamza and other muslim race hate preachers but I can't decide whether it is right or wrong to let them all preach.
On balance I think sod them all. I dont think we lose anything as a society from censoring people like that and stand to lose a fair bit if we don't.
Do many people actually disagree with that?
Shut the fTHere was a common feeling on the thread that he should have been allowed in the country because freedom of speech is so important to our society.
I don't know my thoughts on the subject. I believe that if he should be allowed to talk then so should Abu Hamza and other muslim race hate preachers but I can't decide whether it is right or wrong to let them all preach.
On balance I think sod them all. I dont think we lose anything as a society from censoring people like that and stand to lose a fair bit if we don't.
Do many people actually disagree with that?
k up or I'll come and beat your the souls of your feet with a bamboo cane.ViperScot said:
People should be allowed to say what they want. No limitations. Once you pose ANY restriction, it's a slippery slope. Unfortunately, we're already quite far down that slope in the UK I think...
SO just to give you an extreme example- do you think it is acceptable for a muslim cleric to tell his followers that to do allah's wish is to kill westerners?Edited by ViperScot on Monday 16th February 09:41
If so -why?
blindswelledrat said:
ViperScot said:
People should be allowed to say what they want. No limitations. Once you pose ANY restriction, it's a slippery slope. Unfortunately, we're already quite far down that slope in the UK I think...
SO just to give you an extreme example- do you think it is acceptable for a muslim cleric to tell his followers that to do allah's wish is to kill westerners?Edited by ViperScot on Monday 16th February 09:41
If so -why?
ViperScot said:
blindswelledrat said:
ViperScot said:
People should be allowed to say what they want. No limitations. Once you pose ANY restriction, it's a slippery slope. Unfortunately, we're already quite far down that slope in the UK I think...
SO just to give you an extreme example- do you think it is acceptable for a muslim cleric to tell his followers that to do allah's wish is to kill westerners?Edited by ViperScot on Monday 16th February 09:41
If so -why?
I think we've all seen different to that.
blindswelledrat said:
ViperScot said:
People should be allowed to say what they want. No limitations. Once you pose ANY restriction, it's a slippery slope. Unfortunately, we're already quite far down that slope in the UK I think...
SO just to give you an extreme example- do you think it is acceptable for a muslim cleric to tell his followers that to do allah's wish is to kill westerners?Edited by ViperScot on Monday 16th February 09:41
If so -why?
ViperScot said:
blindswelledrat said:
ViperScot said:
People should be allowed to say what they want. No limitations. Once you pose ANY restriction, it's a slippery slope. Unfortunately, we're already quite far down that slope in the UK I think...
SO just to give you an extreme example- do you think it is acceptable for a muslim cleric to tell his followers that to do allah's wish is to kill westerners?Edited by ViperScot on Monday 16th February 09:41
If so -why?
And I am bloody certain those views would sell in this country as well as any other. Fortunately there are less extreme clerics here but you take any position of trust like a cleric then there word is going to be taken seriously by followers. Thiers is the word of God after all.
Major Bloodnok said:
Do you really think that they will persuade one single person who wasn't already persuaded? The .
Of course I do. I think it happens day in and day out. I feel confident that the majority of suicide bombers, for example, are brainwashed kids as opposed to valiant adult warriors.Major Bloodnok said:
blindswelledrat said:
ViperScot said:
People should be allowed to say what they want. No limitations. Once you pose ANY restriction, it's a slippery slope. Unfortunately, we're already quite far down that slope in the UK I think...
SO just to give you an extreme example- do you think it is acceptable for a muslim cleric to tell his followers that to do allah's wish is to kill westerners?Edited by ViperScot on Monday 16th February 09:41
If so -why?
Hence why Abu Hamsa is serving 7 years for incitement to murder and incitement to race hate.
Given that I feel that Gert Wilder should have been allowed to enter the country, and if what he said contravened our laws on incitement then he should have been dealt with accordingly.
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