Best engine conversion? Honda, Audi, Ford, John Deere...
Discussion
At risk of looking like I'm trolling...
What is the best alternative engine for an S1 for a daily drive road car used on track days about 4 times a year?
It looks like the Audi and Honda engines are about level pegging but I'd be very interested to witness any spirited debate about the pros and cons of them when compared. 'Looks like both can get tweaked/modded to about 400bhp, equal torque etc...
Any thoughts?
What is the best alternative engine for an S1 for a daily drive road car used on track days about 4 times a year?
It looks like the Audi and Honda engines are about level pegging but I'd be very interested to witness any spirited debate about the pros and cons of them when compared. 'Looks like both can get tweaked/modded to about 400bhp, equal torque etc...
Any thoughts?
Honestly, they are both very good and it's just down to which one YOU prefer. They have very different characters both on road and track. The audi gives effortless torque but doesn't rev like hell like the honda.
They are both such well proven conversions that most of the issues have been ironed out long ago.
Drive them all:
Audi 250 bhp
Audi 330 bhp
NA Honda
SC Honda
You will probably like them all, but at the end of the day it's a personal choice. To argue which one is "better" is a bit like arguing over whether apples are better than oranges. I have an NA honda and don't regret it for a minute. My car is mainly used on track. As a daily drive the 250 bhp audi is superb as well. The reality is that you won't be ablt to fully exploit the power of any of them on the road without being a complete loony.
They are both such well proven conversions that most of the issues have been ironed out long ago.
Drive them all:
Audi 250 bhp
Audi 330 bhp
NA Honda
SC Honda
You will probably like them all, but at the end of the day it's a personal choice. To argue which one is "better" is a bit like arguing over whether apples are better than oranges. I have an NA honda and don't regret it for a minute. My car is mainly used on track. As a daily drive the 250 bhp audi is superb as well. The reality is that you won't be ablt to fully exploit the power of any of them on the road without being a complete loony.
Edited by shangani on Thursday 19th February 15:03
well the "best" could be a 550bhp Supercharged RST 2.6L V8 - lighter and more powerful thant both the others...dont expect much change from £50K though to get one with a decent gearbox into the car 
...back in the real world - as above - its more about the power delivery you prefer and other slight pros n cons (bootspace loss maybe in a 400bhp Audi due to cooling requirements) etc, rather than any definite "one is better than the other" type thing
cost wise its going to be about the same for high powered versions of either
personally I used to love my old SC Honda Elise and would have another ...I liked the 8500 revs with serious power from 4000 and up giving a 4500rpm useable power band
on the other hand high powered Audi engined cars owners will say they have 300lbft of torque from 2000-6000rpm flat
it really is a horses for courses type argument and you have to go and drive them both and see what suits your style
...back in the real world - as above - its more about the power delivery you prefer and other slight pros n cons (bootspace loss maybe in a 400bhp Audi due to cooling requirements) etc, rather than any definite "one is better than the other" type thing
cost wise its going to be about the same for high powered versions of either
personally I used to love my old SC Honda Elise and would have another ...I liked the 8500 revs with serious power from 4000 and up giving a 4500rpm useable power band
on the other hand high powered Audi engined cars owners will say they have 300lbft of torque from 2000-6000rpm flat
it really is a horses for courses type argument and you have to go and drive them both and see what suits your style
rdodger said:
DVA built K series. For less than half the cost of a professional K20 NA conversion you could easily have 220 reliable BHP.
so a 220bhp K is as reliable as a bog standard K20 out of a Civic? - have you got the data from 100,000 220bhp Rover K series to back that claim up? (I think Honda have) 
if that statement were true, the Honda and Audi conversions would not exist, why even bother spending years developing a 200bhp engine conversion (what they started as) if there was a 200bhp reliable (or should the word be durable) BHP available in the one you had?
people expect a mass production 200bhp K20A to last for 100-150K miles, whereas i dont think you will find anyone whos owned a 220bhp K (inc myself) who would want to bet on it lasting more than say 35K miles between rebuilds
also you are not comparing apples with apples - a brand new off the shelf 220bhp K series is about £13000 + fitting compared with £2500 for a 5000 mile old Honda lump (or about £7K new in the crate)- you are comparing the cost of a complete engine conversion and all associated parts n labour, with the £5000-6000 cost of someone tuning your *existing* engine thats already in your car
This argument has been done to death for about 5 years now - tune your K, or drop in a conversion ? If you need to keep the K for competition regulations, then I would be knocking on DVAs door, as hes the man to help ...or if you just want to spend £3k, and have 180bhp in a K series in your car for a couple of years before you move onto the next step up in your sportscar ownership experience then sure - go for it ....but if you need a reliable/durable 200bhp engine to do 20K road miles in per year and a dozen track days, and you wish to keep the car for quite some year - then get the other type of K ..the one made by Mr Honda - it will be cheaper in the long run
/no disrespect to DVA who is one of the best engine builders out there, who certainly wouldnt have made that claim himself, and im not saying the Rover K is a poor engine ..its clearly not, but neither is it a cheap and reliable 220bhp one either
A friend of mine recently paid Minister in the region of £8-9k for a new high powered K-series (~240bhp) for his R500. "A warranty sir? You're having a laugh aren't you?"... more or less.
230bhp is easy from a well-mapped NA Honda lump in an Elise/Exige, with a years warranty. And if it goes bang after that, as bogie says, you can drop another in for a couple of grand.
Absolute no-brainer.
230bhp is easy from a well-mapped NA Honda lump in an Elise/Exige, with a years warranty. And if it goes bang after that, as bogie says, you can drop another in for a couple of grand.
Absolute no-brainer.
To the OP - as it's your money you get to make up the criteria - so as the others have said, what's best is really very subjective.
FWIW, I've seen many more Honda engined elises/exiges on track than the other varieties - that may be for many numerous reasons - first to market, more suppliers etc etc ... but they are a proven alternative.
The Duratec conversion looks very tidy and makes use of the existing gearbox and driveshafts - not sure on price etc. Steve Williams uses one to good effect in LoTRDC series.
The Audi's biggest USP is the ability to surf that mountainous torque curve which makes life less frantic if that's what you prefer. Sean Bicknell has also used his Audi'd Exige to good effect in LoTRDC.
What's best? Depends upon what you want so you need to test drive them all. It'll be a fun process so good luck
FWIW, I've seen many more Honda engined elises/exiges on track than the other varieties - that may be for many numerous reasons - first to market, more suppliers etc etc ... but they are a proven alternative.
The Duratec conversion looks very tidy and makes use of the existing gearbox and driveshafts - not sure on price etc. Steve Williams uses one to good effect in LoTRDC series.
The Audi's biggest USP is the ability to surf that mountainous torque curve which makes life less frantic if that's what you prefer. Sean Bicknell has also used his Audi'd Exige to good effect in LoTRDC.
What's best? Depends upon what you want so you need to test drive them all. It'll be a fun process so good luck
Fact is 95% + of Elise owners seem very happy with Lotus Engineer's engine of choice. VVC is plenty enough power for me.
A question, can you have too much bhp in an Elise? A multiple Lotus owning friend (of not insignificant driving repute) thinks that too much power actually detracts from the pleasure of enjoying the Elise's sublime chassis and handling characteristics and anything over 160bhp is ott. Having been driven around Mallory Park by him in his standard S1 Elise I can see what he means.
A question, can you have too much bhp in an Elise? A multiple Lotus owning friend (of not insignificant driving repute) thinks that too much power actually detracts from the pleasure of enjoying the Elise's sublime chassis and handling characteristics and anything over 160bhp is ott. Having been driven around Mallory Park by him in his standard S1 Elise I can see what he means.
cyberface said:
I think an Audi engined car would be like a very focused VXT... I'd be interested
You'd have to sell your Toyota engined Exige and buy an earlier car-there is'nt a conversion available for it.All the kits available(afaik)are to convert K powered cars(Scuffers will probably confirm)
HTH.
RonnieP said:
Fact is 95% + of Elise owners seem very happy with Lotus Engineer's engine of choice. VVC is plenty enough power for me.
A question, can you have too much bhp in an Elise? A multiple Lotus owning friend (of not insignificant driving repute) thinks that too much power actually detracts from the pleasure of enjoying the Elise's sublime chassis and handling characteristics and anything over 160bhp is ott. Having been driven around Mallory Park by him in his standard S1 Elise I can see what he means.
yeah - Lotus thought that about 600bhp was about right to enjoy GT1 racing in the S1 ELise ...so anything less than that isnt enough A question, can you have too much bhp in an Elise? A multiple Lotus owning friend (of not insignificant driving repute) thinks that too much power actually detracts from the pleasure of enjoying the Elise's sublime chassis and handling characteristics and anything over 160bhp is ott. Having been driven around Mallory Park by him in his standard S1 Elise I can see what he means.
/ A Pagani Zonda has a sublime chassis too ...do you think that Mr Pagani should have called it a day development wise with the original 350bhp car and should have bothered to develop the various models to 750bhp ...maybe we ought to tell Lotus not to bother too - its no more fun having that extra power eh
Sorry Bogie you have left me there. All I know is that at Mallory Park there were lots of more 'powerful' cars present, but with a skilled driver excess power was irrelevant, hence the point I was trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to make.
Btw Lotus have a market to target within a set budget, they have to sell cars but then folks who have 'modified' their Lotus (and good luck yo them) will always have an axe to grind
Btw Lotus have a market to target within a set budget, they have to sell cars but then folks who have 'modified' their Lotus (and good luck yo them) will always have an axe to grind
RonnieP said:
Sorry Bogie you have left me there. All I know is that at Mallory Park there were lots of more 'powerful' cars present, but with a skilled driver excess power was irrelevant, hence the point I was trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to make.
Btw Lotus have a market to target within a set budget, they have to sell cars but then folks who have 'modified' their Lotus (and good luck yo them) will always have an axe to grind
well your post read as if to say that 160bhp is more than enough for anyone, but what you are saying is that a good driver in a 160bhp car dosent get left behind much? ...yeah, thats rightBtw Lotus have a market to target within a set budget, they have to sell cars but then folks who have 'modified' their Lotus (and good luck yo them) will always have an axe to grind
if you are happy with your 160bhp and need to justify that to yourself then of course thats fine and dandy - lots of us like more powerful Elises and like to justify spending tens of thousands on making them just how we like
like you say - 70% of Elise owners arnt even aware of things like engine conversions, only a few thousand peruse these (and other) forums ...if you ask most if they would like 250bhp though for the price of a C service Im not sure many would decline ...usually its just a money thing - you either justify why you cant afford it to yourself, or why you should spend your savings - power corrupts as they say and you can never have enough <manic laugh> LOL
Beachbum said:
I thought the RST V8 option never got off the drawing board for Elise/Exiges. It made it into a Caterham, but stalled there
it made it a bit further than the drawing board, I have seen one physically fitted in an Elise ...then it got stuck there when the final price was realised LOL ...so no its not a turn key option like the others, but entirely possible if you had deep enough pocketsRST V8 would be great, after meeting the owner and explaining the engine I would put one in my dream garage.
At the time I did not know it was that much, but should of guessed as one of the test cars was from Dubai and the other guy who had bought a supercharged version came in by Helicopter and had a racing XJ220.
Doh, I must working harder....
At the time I did not know it was that much, but should of guessed as one of the test cars was from Dubai and the other guy who had bought a supercharged version came in by Helicopter and had a racing XJ220.
Doh, I must working harder....
Edited by Stu_00 on Friday 20th February 09:01
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