Italian Court drops all charges against McLaren in spy row
Discussion
So does this mean the FIA have to give the $100million back and their constructors championships........of course not, the FIA having to admit they were wrong....never.
Crash.net said:
The infamous spy row – which has rumbled on in Formula 1 since it exploded onto the scene mid-2007 – is finally now over, with news that the Italian authorities have dropped all charges against McLaren-Mercedes.
Legal action had been in place against the Woking-based concern's former chief designer Mike Coughlan and three current senior members of the team, in the wake of the espionage scandal provoked by the passing of a 780-page dossier containing confidential data to Coughlan by then Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney two years ago.
Whilst those proceedings have now been ended, all four men remain liable for fines, with Coughlan having to cough up £158,000 in return for not contesting charges of copyright infringement, the BBC reports. Engineers Paddy Lowe, Jonathan Neale and Rob Taylor – who are all still employed by McLaren – each face a penalty of £131,500.
McLaren were fined a sporting record $100 million two years ago for receipt of private information belonging to another team, and disqualified from the Formula 1 Constructors' World Championship.
“The proceedings in Italy were merely the officialising of what had been proposed long before, namely the 'nolo contendere' (no contest) agreement,” explained a spokesman for the multiple title-winning outfit. “A line has finally been drawn under this matter.”
Earlier this month, FIA President Max Mosley announced that both Stepney – who remains the subject of ongoing legal action in Italy initiated by Ferrari – and Coughlan, who was also once employed by the Scuderia, have both been effectively pardoned to work in motorsport again, even if he urged all F1 teams to approach the pair with extreme caution.
Legal action had been in place against the Woking-based concern's former chief designer Mike Coughlan and three current senior members of the team, in the wake of the espionage scandal provoked by the passing of a 780-page dossier containing confidential data to Coughlan by then Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney two years ago.
Whilst those proceedings have now been ended, all four men remain liable for fines, with Coughlan having to cough up £158,000 in return for not contesting charges of copyright infringement, the BBC reports. Engineers Paddy Lowe, Jonathan Neale and Rob Taylor – who are all still employed by McLaren – each face a penalty of £131,500.
McLaren were fined a sporting record $100 million two years ago for receipt of private information belonging to another team, and disqualified from the Formula 1 Constructors' World Championship.
“The proceedings in Italy were merely the officialising of what had been proposed long before, namely the 'nolo contendere' (no contest) agreement,” explained a spokesman for the multiple title-winning outfit. “A line has finally been drawn under this matter.”
Earlier this month, FIA President Max Mosley announced that both Stepney – who remains the subject of ongoing legal action in Italy initiated by Ferrari – and Coughlan, who was also once employed by the Scuderia, have both been effectively pardoned to work in motorsport again, even if he urged all F1 teams to approach the pair with extreme caution.
_Batty_ said:
spanky got it wrong again then.
could mclaren go after damages?
Interesting point, is it worth McLaren fighting for what's rightfully theirs now in the eye of the legal system? As batty says, the spanker has got it wrong yet again and surely the FIA, even if they can't find the money to pay back, should at least reinstate McLaren in the constructors standings for historical purposes...could mclaren go after damages?
Talking of historical things, I wonder what spanky will be remembered for once he leaves the world of F1 to focus more on fitting out his personal dungeon away from the prying eyes of the media.... mmmmmm I wonder
Edited by motormania on Tuesday 24th February 14:05
Interestingly, this version of the press release says "closed all legal action" as opposed to "dropped all charges".
To me, that seems to sit better with McLaren saying "no contest" and fines being imposed - i.e. accused of <whatever>, plead no contest, fines imposed, case closed.
That's kind of backed up here too: "'Nolo contendere' means 'no contest', where a defendant neither admits nor disputes the charge but accepts the effect of a guilty plea."
I think "drops all charges" isn't the best way to phrase it.
To me, that seems to sit better with McLaren saying "no contest" and fines being imposed - i.e. accused of <whatever>, plead no contest, fines imposed, case closed.
That's kind of backed up here too: "'Nolo contendere' means 'no contest', where a defendant neither admits nor disputes the charge but accepts the effect of a guilty plea."
I think "drops all charges" isn't the best way to phrase it.
I would imagine McLaren and the employees in question have chosen the option to pay a large fee to avoid facing the charges, rather than this story proving any notion of innocence.
Logically it's the only decent option, considering the legal fees for fighting the case would be huge, the Italian legal system is hardly a paragon of speed or justice and the court process might air dirty linen McLaren would rather have kept private.
Better to get out the chequebook and put an end to the whole affair.
Logically it's the only decent option, considering the legal fees for fighting the case would be huge, the Italian legal system is hardly a paragon of speed or justice and the court process might air dirty linen McLaren would rather have kept private.
Better to get out the chequebook and put an end to the whole affair.
10 Pence Short said:
I would imagine McLaren and the employees in question have chosen the option to pay a large fee to avoid facing the charges, rather than this story proving any notion of innocence.
Logically it's the only decent option, considering the legal fees for fighting the case would be huge, the Italian legal system is hardly a paragon of speed or justice and the court process might air dirty linen McLaren would rather have kept private.
Better to get out the chequebook and put an end to the whole affair.
That's exactly how I read it too. No suggestion that the charges have been dropped at all, just McLaren opting for the quickest and least messy way to accept what they saw as an inevitable outcome.Logically it's the only decent option, considering the legal fees for fighting the case would be huge, the Italian legal system is hardly a paragon of speed or justice and the court process might air dirty linen McLaren would rather have kept private.
Better to get out the chequebook and put an end to the whole affair.
There was a suggestion that the evidence collected by Mosley during the incredibly exhaustive investigation into Mclaren's systems revealed no guilty knowledge on behalf of McLaren International and the only thing they could be charged with was the actions of two of their drivers: Alonso and PDL Rosa. Mosley admitted that McLren International and Ron in particular did not know of the particulars of the spying bit. There was a lot of supposition on behalf of Mosley; i.e. believing Alonso/Rosa when they said things implicating themselves but not believing them when the said things which took blame off McLaren. This would have been laughed out of a criminal court. Cor, you'd think a lawyer would know better.
Given that and the fact that the evidence strongly suggested that Stepney was one of the two co-conspirators, I'd say that if McLaren did indeed pay into any kitty, it wasn't much.
The thing with Italian process is that it is geared towards prolonging all procedures. One wonders if there is any connection between RD's decision to move on and the dropping of all charges.
Given that and the fact that the evidence strongly suggested that Stepney was one of the two co-conspirators, I'd say that if McLaren did indeed pay into any kitty, it wasn't much.
The thing with Italian process is that it is geared towards prolonging all procedures. One wonders if there is any connection between RD's decision to move on and the dropping of all charges.
Derek Smith said:
There was a suggestion that the evidence collected by Mosley during the incredibly exhaustive investigation into Mclaren's systems revealed no guilty knowledge on behalf of McLaren International and the only thing they could be charged with was the actions of two of their drivers: Alonso and PDL Rosa. Mosley admitted that McLren International and Ron in particular did not know of the particulars of the spying bit. There was a lot of supposition on behalf of Mosley; i.e. believing Alonso/Rosa when they said things implicating themselves but not believing them when the said things which took blame off McLaren. This would have been laughed out of a criminal court.
A suggestion put forward most often and most vocally by yourself, I think. 
It's a bit tricky - the 5th December transcript appeared to show a lot of [Senior McLaren Engineers] having bursts of divine inspiration followed by periods of acute amnesia. You're probably right that it wouldn't stand up in court, but I doubt (m)any of us are naive enough to believe that only the two drivers knew anything.
Hopefully this really will be the end of it - regardless of the rights or wrongs, I doubt we can change what has happened, and I personally don't think that raking it over again is going to make the coming season more enjoyable.
jamieboy said:
Interestingly, this version of the press release says "closed all legal action" as opposed to "dropped all charges".
To me, that seems to sit better with McLaren saying "no contest" and fines being imposed - i.e. accused of <whatever>, plead no contest, fines imposed, case closed.
That's kind of backed up here too: "'Nolo contendere' means 'no contest', where a defendant neither admits nor disputes the charge but accepts the effect of a guilty plea."
I think "drops all charges" isn't the best way to phrase it.
Jamie's got it right: you don't pay fines if charges are dropped. On the other hand, just because you pay fines doesn't mean that you did anything wrong.To me, that seems to sit better with McLaren saying "no contest" and fines being imposed - i.e. accused of <whatever>, plead no contest, fines imposed, case closed.
That's kind of backed up here too: "'Nolo contendere' means 'no contest', where a defendant neither admits nor disputes the charge but accepts the effect of a guilty plea."
I think "drops all charges" isn't the best way to phrase it.
I think we can judge how the Italian legal system (bit of an oxymoron, I'll admit) viewed the seriousness of the cases by weighing the total of £400,000 in fines it handed out to McLaren employees against the prison sentences of 9 and 16 months that it handed out to the two Toyota employees who stole Ferrari IP a couple of years ago.
Derek Smith said:
There was a suggestion that the evidence collected by Mosley during the incredibly exhaustive investigation into Mclaren's systems revealed no guilty knowledge on behalf of McLaren International and the only thing they could be charged with was the actions of two of their drivers: Alonso and PDL Rosa. Mosley admitted that McLren International and Ron in particular did not know of the particulars of the spying bit. There was a lot of supposition on behalf of Mosley; i.e. believing Alonso/Rosa when they said things implicating themselves but not believing them when the said things which took blame off McLaren. This would have been laughed out of a criminal court. Cor, you'd think a lawyer would know better.
Given that and the fact that the evidence strongly suggested that Stepney was one of the two co-conspirators, I'd say that if McLaren did indeed pay into any kitty, it wasn't much.
The thing with Italian process is that it is geared towards prolonging all procedures. One wonders if there is any connection between RD's decision to move on and the dropping of all charges.
Wasn't Ron Dennis the 'whistleblower' as soon as he found out about it from Alonso and De La Rosa? Sounds like Ron might have taken the can for others if that is his ultimate reason for stepping down.Given that and the fact that the evidence strongly suggested that Stepney was one of the two co-conspirators, I'd say that if McLaren did indeed pay into any kitty, it wasn't much.
The thing with Italian process is that it is geared towards prolonging all procedures. One wonders if there is any connection between RD's decision to move on and the dropping of all charges.
stifler said:
Derek Smith said:
There was a suggestion that the evidence collected by Mosley during the incredibly exhaustive investigation into Mclaren's systems revealed no guilty knowledge on behalf of McLaren International and the only thing they could be charged with was the actions of two of their drivers: Alonso and PDL Rosa. Mosley admitted that McLren International and Ron in particular did not know of the particulars of the spying bit. There was a lot of supposition on behalf of Mosley; i.e. believing Alonso/Rosa when they said things implicating themselves but not believing them when the said things which took blame off McLaren. This would have been laughed out of a criminal court. Cor, you'd think a lawyer would know better.
Given that and the fact that the evidence strongly suggested that Stepney was one of the two co-conspirators, I'd say that if McLaren did indeed pay into any kitty, it wasn't much.
The thing with Italian process is that it is geared towards prolonging all procedures. One wonders if there is any connection between RD's decision to move on and the dropping of all charges.
Wasn't Ron Dennis the 'whistleblower' as soon as he found out about it from Alonso and De La Rosa? Sounds like Ron might have taken the can for others if that is his ultimate reason for stepping down.Given that and the fact that the evidence strongly suggested that Stepney was one of the two co-conspirators, I'd say that if McLaren did indeed pay into any kitty, it wasn't much.
The thing with Italian process is that it is geared towards prolonging all procedures. One wonders if there is any connection between RD's decision to move on and the dropping of all charges.
Edited by VladD on Wednesday 25th February 12:22
stifler said:
Wasn't Ron Dennis the 'whistleblower' as soon as he found out about it from Alonso and De La Rosa? Sounds like Ron might have taken the can for others if that is his ultimate reason for stepping down.
The story that was on some F1 sites, although most, but not all, withdrew them, was that an argument ensued between RD and FA during which the matter of the data from Ferrari was raised. Whether or not there was a threat to disclose it for some sort of consideration is unknown. However, RD then phoned MRM. FA then returned to RD in company with a friend which was when RD told FA that the stuff had hit the fan.There was a report from the FiA that Mosley was the informant but I've been unable to find this again so I might have misread it or it might have been pulled. I can't possibly say.
What is clear is that the information that FA and PDLR had was the cause of the further enquiry. The original one found no case to answer aainst RD and McLaen on the assumption that they had been honest. The second enquiry found no evidence to support that RD and McL had been dishonest, only FA, PDLR and the chap who was, at that time, in the wind tunnel. MRM, having gone into pope mode and given FA and PDLR absolution for past sins, had no one else to blame apart from RD.
An oversimplification perhaps but there has never, ever been any suggestion of a systemised attempt by RD or McLaren to obtain and/or use confidential information belonging to another team. There may or may not - favouring the latter - been confidential Ferrari information that came via Stepney/Coughlan that found its way, in however dliuted form, into the McLaren database, but the FiA couldn't find it, nor could they find any attempt to hide such stuff. There seems little doubt that Coughlan's knowledge of what Ferrari were doing would probably have influenced his decisions but what is clear is that the Stepney/Coughlan arrangement with the data had more to do with their needs and wishes than McLaren's or any other team.
The real villians in this would seem to be Stepney and Coghlan. Next in line were PDLR and FA. There was some minor criticism of procedures when Coughlan approached high middle management with certain data but one has to suspect that suh things go on all the time.
It is very easy - at least I found it so - to get confused between the original enquiry and the second one and a pen and paper are handy when going through it all just to keep a handle on it. However, what must be accepted is that McLaren's rejection of the findings of the second enquiry were not punished in any overt way, although one might suspect that the movements up and down the pitlane were a petulant response from someone unknown. The letter to the FiA was a classic. Probably written by a lawyer who would have said at the end that he wasn't happy with it.
I've got to say that if the present managerial structure was in charge of Ferrari at the time of Stepneygate then it would have turned out considerably differently and with less damage to the reputation of F1.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs, the way it was run did a lot of harm to the sport. Image is everything and a swingeing fine of (not despite the FiA's suggestion) $100,000,000 is an odd way to go about securing the long term interests of the sport. Mosely didn't so much shoot F1 in the foot as the head.
stuttgartmetal said:
Wasn't there a Stepney/Honda dimension to all of it at one point Derek?
Ron is going off to build road cars that will whip the FIAT's every which way.
LOL
Personally, if I were in the right financial position, I'd put a McLaren F1 in my garage before any Ferrari.
Would you not even look at an F40?Ron is going off to build road cars that will whip the FIAT's every which way.
LOL
Personally, if I were in the right financial position, I'd put a McLaren F1 in my garage before any Ferrari.
stuttgartmetal said:
Wasn't there a Stepney/Honda dimension to all of it at one point Derek?
Ron is going off to build road cars that will whip the FIAT's every which way.
LOL
Personally, if I were in the right financial position, I'd put a McLaren F1 in my garage before any Ferrari.
Over the winter of '06-7, Stepney was informed that he would not be succeeding Ross Brawn. This affected his sense of loyalty towards his employers.Ron is going off to build road cars that will whip the FIAT's every which way.
LOL
Personally, if I were in the right financial position, I'd put a McLaren F1 in my garage before any Ferrari.
He approached Honda, who were at that point floundering, with a proposal that they hire him to run their team. They had one or more conversations.
On a parallel track, Stepney was aware that Ferrari were intending to run some things on their '07 car which he thought were illegal. Apparently for reasons of spite, he contacted the FIA technical team (Bauer/Whiting, etc) and revealed to them the areas at issue. He allegedly did this more than once, but the FIA failed to respond.
As the season approached, and the FIA continued to manifest no interest in his disclosures to them, he reckoned that the next best way of getting revenge was to inform his employers' rivals of the supposed illegal features; thus he contacted Coughlan, sent over sketches of the movable floor (and a couple of other things). After the FIA again failed to act, at the time of the Australian GP, which Ferrari won, McLaren then started their enquiry regarding whether they might be allowed to do to their car something like what Ferrari had done to their own. It was at this point that the flexible floor was banned.
Later in the spring, as his conversations with Coughlan continued, Stepney asked if he would be interested in coming with him to a meeting with Honda, the idea being that perhaps the two of them could compose a leadership team that Honda would consider hiring. The two of them then met with Fry, but nothing had come of it by the time that Coughlan's wife went to get the discs made, and something hit the fan.
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