E39 M5 - Should I buy one????
Discussion
Just toying with the idea at the moment. Recently sold a GT3 after years of fabulous driving experiences, many of which were spent on the track. Now I drive a smart(bl**dy marvellous). Have always had a soft spot for the M series beemers, particularly the M5 series. Would you guys recommend one, and in partcular are there any "must have" extras or common problems that need to be looked out for when buying. Also, how easy are they to "de-restrict"?
Steve
Steve
Edited by Paulburrell on Thursday 26th February 14:31
Edited by Paulburrell on Thursday 26th February 14:32
Edited by Paulburrell on Thursday 26th February 15:28
De-restriction is simple, most specialists can do it in minutes via a computer. Have a good look however at an Alpina B10 V8, more torque, more speed, more class and a better ride. Also much rarer but same build quality and toys etc!
Only major issues with M5's are rust spots around fuel filler cap, maybe around the rear screen and boot lid....a somewhat frustrating gear change when cold and brakes that can be less than effective if used on track. Check A/C, all electrics inc seats, windows, mirrors etc and look at the inside edge of the tyres and condition of alloys which can bubble.
Look at bills from specialists / BMW dealers when buying not just stamps in the book and test drive a few before deciding.
Changing the front brake calipers is popular as is a new exhaust for a better sound.
Only major issues with M5's are rust spots around fuel filler cap, maybe around the rear screen and boot lid....a somewhat frustrating gear change when cold and brakes that can be less than effective if used on track. Check A/C, all electrics inc seats, windows, mirrors etc and look at the inside edge of the tyres and condition of alloys which can bubble.
Look at bills from specialists / BMW dealers when buying not just stamps in the book and test drive a few before deciding.
Changing the front brake calipers is popular as is a new exhaust for a better sound.
belleair302 said:
De-restriction is simple, most specialists can do it in minutes via a computer. Have a good look however at an Alpina B10 V8, more torque, more speed, more class and a better ride. Also much rarer but same build quality and toys etc!
Only major issues with M5's are rust spots around fuel filler cap, maybe around the rear screen and boot lid....a somewhat frustrating gear change when cold and brakes that can be less than effective if used on track. Check A/C, all electrics inc seats, windows, mirrors etc and look at the inside edge of the tyres and condition of alloys which can bubble.
Look at bills from specialists / BMW dealers when buying not just stamps in the book and test drive a few before deciding.
Changing the front brake calipers is popular as is a new exhaust for a better sound.
Is the B10 faster,thought it was slower?Only major issues with M5's are rust spots around fuel filler cap, maybe around the rear screen and boot lid....a somewhat frustrating gear change when cold and brakes that can be less than effective if used on track. Check A/C, all electrics inc seats, windows, mirrors etc and look at the inside edge of the tyres and condition of alloys which can bubble.
Look at bills from specialists / BMW dealers when buying not just stamps in the book and test drive a few before deciding.
Changing the front brake calipers is popular as is a new exhaust for a better sound.
The V8 a 4.4L engine, from the E39 540i had specially cast blocks, Alpina crankshaft and cams, better Mahle pistons and a better Motronic ECU...finished off by a hand ported head.
Figures when new were:
347bhp@5700rpm
354 lb/ft@3800rpm
0-62mph 5.5 secs
v/max 174 mph
Cost £55K eleven years ago plus optional extras.
Figures when new were:
347bhp@5700rpm
354 lb/ft@3800rpm
0-62mph 5.5 secs
v/max 174 mph
Cost £55K eleven years ago plus optional extras.
I owned an E39 M5 for about 18 months. It was a good car , owed me nothing mechanically. TV/ Sat nav are supposed to be sought after , but the sat nav in the early cd based systems is s
te compared to a current TomTom and if you want to watch TV , stay at home, so if I were having another (I'm sure I will soon) I'd place provenence above overall specification. They like to eat clutches and vanos units so if you see one with both of these items recently replaced ( look for the receipts dont just take it on verbal ) you should have a good few years of trouble free motoring. The engine itself does sound a bit rough though especially on start up , but thats just the way they are
te compared to a current TomTom and if you want to watch TV , stay at home, so if I were having another (I'm sure I will soon) I'd place provenence above overall specification. They like to eat clutches and vanos units so if you see one with both of these items recently replaced ( look for the receipts dont just take it on verbal ) you should have a good few years of trouble free motoring. The engine itself does sound a bit rough though especially on start up , but thats just the way they areR60EST said:
They like to eat clutches and vanos units
Not quite True....Clutches Should last about 50k, But if its had a hard life then less, VANOS depends on the Car. Check the History, As long as the correct Oil has been used and the service history is up to scratch then you cannot really go wrong.Have a look on www.m5board.com for the buying guides
belleair302 said:
The V8 a 4.4L engine, from the E39 540i had specially cast blocks, Alpina crankshaft and cams, better Mahle pistons and a better Motronic ECU...finished off by a hand ported head.
Figures when new were:
347bhp@5700rpm
354 lb/ft@3800rpm
0-62mph 5.5 secs
v/max 174 mph
Cost £55K eleven years ago plus optional extras.
I thought an M5 had 400bhp, 369lbs/ft of torque and 0-62 in 5.1/5.2?Figures when new were:
347bhp@5700rpm
354 lb/ft@3800rpm
0-62mph 5.5 secs
v/max 174 mph
Cost £55K eleven years ago plus optional extras.
Derestricted - I fail to see where an Alpina has more speed, more torque?
According to all the press tests of the time the M5 out handles an Alpina too?
Aside from wanting to be 'different' I see little advantage in an Alpina. (Besides which M5's are hardly commonplace)?????
The B10 is a different way of getting quickly from a-b....better in town and a more sophisticated ride if not as sporting. The Switchtronic box is amazing and the interior is way more luxurious than the standard M5.
Regarding how common E39 M5's are depends upon where you live. Round here DB9's, 612's and SLR's are very average.
Regarding how common E39 M5's are depends upon where you live. Round here DB9's, 612's and SLR's are very average.
belleair302 said:
De-restriction is simple, most specialists can do it in minutes via a computer. Have a good look however at an Alpina B10 V8, more torque, more speed, more class and a better ride. Also much rarer but same build quality and toys etc!
Are you on commission from Alpina? http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
belleair302 said:
The B10 is a different way of getting quickly from a-b....better in town and a more sophisticated ride if not as sporting. The Switchtronic box is amazing and the interior is way more luxurious than the standard M5.
Regarding how common E39 M5's are depends upon where you live. Round here DB9's, 612's and SLR's are very average.
M5 is very comfortable anyway so don't see any real advantage, and a similar point re interior. Regarding how common E39 M5's are depends upon where you live. Round here DB9's, 612's and SLR's are very average.
The auto may be amazing but I think the manual would still hit the spot moreso for someone who is coming from a GT3.
Edited by Hedgetrimmer on Friday 27th February 12:58
tuscan_thunder said:
belleair302 said:
De-restriction is simple, most specialists can do it in minutes via a computer. Have a good look however at an Alpina B10 V8, more torque, more speed, more class and a better ride. Also much rarer but same build quality and toys etc!
Are you on commission from Alpina? http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
belleair302 said:
tuscan_thunder said:
belleair302 said:
De-restriction is simple, most specialists can do it in minutes via a computer. Have a good look however at an Alpina B10 V8, more torque, more speed, more class and a better ride. Also much rarer but same build quality and toys etc!
Are you on commission from Alpina? http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and the Alpina version will not outperform an M5 - that's a laughable assertion
maddernj said:
R60EST said:
They like to eat clutches and vanos units
Not quite True....Clutches Should last about 50k, But if its had a hard life then less, VANOS depends on the Car. Check the History, As long as the correct Oil has been used and the service history is up to scratch then you cannot really go wrong.Have a look on www.m5board.com for the buying guides
I can't believe what good value these cars are now! If I hadn't spent so much on my car recently I would be very tempted by something like this:
http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/BMW+...
http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/BMW+...
Hi All, just sold my TVR as I'm looking for somthing with the extra seats, so far considered XKR, S Type R and M5. I've seen a nice 2000 E39 5.0 M5 89K on the clock which has caught my eye, just trying to find out a bit more about these cars. What's Vanos (excuse my ignorance)? which I saw mentioned earlier?. Any help appreciated.
Do a search on www.m5board.com (E39 section) and all will be revealed.
VANOS is a combined hydraulic and mechanical camshaft control device managed by the car's DME engine management system.
The VANOS system is based on an adjustment mechanism that can modify the position of the intake camshaft versus the crankshaft. Double-VANOS adds an adjustment of the intake and outlet camshafts.
VANOS operates on the intake camshaft in accordance with engine speed and accelerator pedal position. At the lower end of the engine-speed scale, the intake valves are opened later, which improves idling quality and smoothness. At moderate engine speeds, the intake valves open much earlier, which boosts torque and permits exhaust gas re-circulation inside the combustion chambers, reducing fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. Finally, at high engine speeds, intake valve opening is once again delayed, so that full power can be developed.
VANOS significantly enhances emission management, increases output and torque, and offers better idling quality and fuel economy. The latest version of VANOS is double-VANOS, used in the new M3.
VANOS was first introduced in 1992 on the BMW M50 engine used in the 5 Series.
Here's how it works:
In overhead cam engines, the cams are connected to the crankshaft by either a belt or chain and gears. In BMW VANOS motors there is a chain and some sprockets.
The crankshaft drives a sprocket on the exhaust cam, and the exhaust cam sprocket is bolted to the exhaust cam. A second set of teeth moves a second chain that goes across to the intake cam. The big sprocket on the intake cam is not bolted to the cam, for it has a big hole in the middle. Inside the hole is a helical set of teeth. On the end of the cam is a gear that is also helical on the outside, but it's too small to connect to the teeth on the inside of the big sprocket. There is a little cup of metal with helical teeth to match the cam on the inside and to match the sprocket on the outside. The V (Variable) in VANOS is due to the helical nature of the teeth. The cup gear is moved by a hydraulic mechanism that works on oil pressure controlled by the DME.
At idle, the cam timing is retarded. Just off idle, the DME energizes a solenoid which allows oil pressure to move that cup gear to advance the cam 12.5 degrees at midrange, and then at about 5000 rpm, it allows it to come back to the original position. The greater advance causes better cylinder fill at mid rpms for better torque. The noise some people hear is the result of tolerances that make the sprocket wiggle a bit as the cup gear is moved in or out.
Double VANOS
Double-VANOS (double-variable camshaft control) significantly improves torque since valve timing on both the intake and outlet camshafts are adjusted to the power required from the engine as a function of gas pedal position and engine speed.
On most BMW engines that use a single VANOS, the timing of the intake cam is only changed at two distinct rpm points, while on the double-VANOS system, the timing of the intake and exhaust cams are continuously variable throughout the majority of the rpm range.
With double-VANOS, the opening period of the intake valves are extended by 12 degrees with an increase in valve lift by 0.9 mm.
Double-VANOS requires very high oil pressure in order to adjust the camshafts very quickly and accurately, ensuring better torque at low engine speeds and better power at high speeds. With the amount of un-burnt residual gases being reduced, engine idle is improved. Special engine management control maps for the warm-up phase help the catalytic converter reach operating temperature sooner.
Double-VANOS improves low rpm power, flattens the torque curve, and widens the powerband for a given set of camshafts. The double-VANOS engine has a 450 rpm lower torque peak and a 200 rpm higher horsepower peak than single-VANOS, and the torque curve is improved between 1500 - 3800 rpm. At the same time, the torque does not fall off as fast past the horsepower peak.
The advantage of double-VANOS is that the system controls the flow of hot exhaust gases into the intake manifold individually for all operating conditions. This is referred to as "internal" exhaust gas re-circulation, allowing very fine dosage of the amount of exhaust gas recycled.
While the engine is warming up, VANOS improves the fuel/air mixture and helps to quickly warm up the catalytic converter to its normal operating temperature. When the engine is idling, the system keeps idle speeds smooth and consistent thanks to the reduction of exhaust gas re-circulation to a minimum. Under part load, exhaust gas re-circulation is increased to a much higher level, allowing the engine to run on a wider opening angle of the throttle butterfly in the interest of greater fuel economy. Under full load, the system switches back to a low re-circulation volume providing the cylinders with as much oxygen as possible.
VANOS is a combined hydraulic and mechanical camshaft control device managed by the car's DME engine management system.
The VANOS system is based on an adjustment mechanism that can modify the position of the intake camshaft versus the crankshaft. Double-VANOS adds an adjustment of the intake and outlet camshafts.
VANOS operates on the intake camshaft in accordance with engine speed and accelerator pedal position. At the lower end of the engine-speed scale, the intake valves are opened later, which improves idling quality and smoothness. At moderate engine speeds, the intake valves open much earlier, which boosts torque and permits exhaust gas re-circulation inside the combustion chambers, reducing fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. Finally, at high engine speeds, intake valve opening is once again delayed, so that full power can be developed.
VANOS significantly enhances emission management, increases output and torque, and offers better idling quality and fuel economy. The latest version of VANOS is double-VANOS, used in the new M3.
VANOS was first introduced in 1992 on the BMW M50 engine used in the 5 Series.
Here's how it works:
In overhead cam engines, the cams are connected to the crankshaft by either a belt or chain and gears. In BMW VANOS motors there is a chain and some sprockets.
The crankshaft drives a sprocket on the exhaust cam, and the exhaust cam sprocket is bolted to the exhaust cam. A second set of teeth moves a second chain that goes across to the intake cam. The big sprocket on the intake cam is not bolted to the cam, for it has a big hole in the middle. Inside the hole is a helical set of teeth. On the end of the cam is a gear that is also helical on the outside, but it's too small to connect to the teeth on the inside of the big sprocket. There is a little cup of metal with helical teeth to match the cam on the inside and to match the sprocket on the outside. The V (Variable) in VANOS is due to the helical nature of the teeth. The cup gear is moved by a hydraulic mechanism that works on oil pressure controlled by the DME.
At idle, the cam timing is retarded. Just off idle, the DME energizes a solenoid which allows oil pressure to move that cup gear to advance the cam 12.5 degrees at midrange, and then at about 5000 rpm, it allows it to come back to the original position. The greater advance causes better cylinder fill at mid rpms for better torque. The noise some people hear is the result of tolerances that make the sprocket wiggle a bit as the cup gear is moved in or out.
Double VANOS
Double-VANOS (double-variable camshaft control) significantly improves torque since valve timing on both the intake and outlet camshafts are adjusted to the power required from the engine as a function of gas pedal position and engine speed.
On most BMW engines that use a single VANOS, the timing of the intake cam is only changed at two distinct rpm points, while on the double-VANOS system, the timing of the intake and exhaust cams are continuously variable throughout the majority of the rpm range.
With double-VANOS, the opening period of the intake valves are extended by 12 degrees with an increase in valve lift by 0.9 mm.
Double-VANOS requires very high oil pressure in order to adjust the camshafts very quickly and accurately, ensuring better torque at low engine speeds and better power at high speeds. With the amount of un-burnt residual gases being reduced, engine idle is improved. Special engine management control maps for the warm-up phase help the catalytic converter reach operating temperature sooner.
Double-VANOS improves low rpm power, flattens the torque curve, and widens the powerband for a given set of camshafts. The double-VANOS engine has a 450 rpm lower torque peak and a 200 rpm higher horsepower peak than single-VANOS, and the torque curve is improved between 1500 - 3800 rpm. At the same time, the torque does not fall off as fast past the horsepower peak.
The advantage of double-VANOS is that the system controls the flow of hot exhaust gases into the intake manifold individually for all operating conditions. This is referred to as "internal" exhaust gas re-circulation, allowing very fine dosage of the amount of exhaust gas recycled.
While the engine is warming up, VANOS improves the fuel/air mixture and helps to quickly warm up the catalytic converter to its normal operating temperature. When the engine is idling, the system keeps idle speeds smooth and consistent thanks to the reduction of exhaust gas re-circulation to a minimum. Under part load, exhaust gas re-circulation is increased to a much higher level, allowing the engine to run on a wider opening angle of the throttle butterfly in the interest of greater fuel economy. Under full load, the system switches back to a low re-circulation volume providing the cylinders with as much oxygen as possible.
post 01/facelift are supposed to be ok 
i think some "later" pre 01 are also sorted...Gassing Station | M Power | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff