Grip in the wet
Discussion
After two months of really low tread on the car , I put new rubber (Pirelli P Zeros) on and what a difference…
well until I did 250 miles on the motorway on Sun when it was lashing down with rain. (the tyres were about 150 miles old so had been run in)
It really was a struggle to keep ahead of 1.6GL’s … okay there were some high speed runs, but what a nightmare..
Took the car out on Monday when it was bone dry down some B roads and it was fantastic again.
This got me thinking.( and driving, did about another 200 miles down B roads to try and understand the car some more) I feel the car relies far too much on pure mechanical grip, in other words any car with 400BHP mid engined, running similar tyres will generate as much grip as the 360, no matter what dampers you stick on..
I think the standard dampers are really poor. They are okay of it is dry cause they can cope, as it is a stiff setup for the dry….. but once the conditions are variable then it becomes a bit of a struggle…
I think the back setup is too soft and this affects the handling on turn in…The damping feels all wrong it just doesn’t rebound as you would expect. You get a little wobble as the weight transfers on to the front when you are breaking from high speed and then entering into a corner.. think this is pitch….
I feel that it is not supple enough in high speed corners to settle on the springs and remain steady. Again there is that transition due to the rear.
Anyway I am looking into having the dampers re-valved , and also running different springs, and a different anti roll bar..
This is to improve the wet weather handling as I think in the dry not many cars come close.
Any comments on other peoples cars…
I know 355’s also struggle in the wet. Not sure of 550’s and 575’s..
Cheers
well until I did 250 miles on the motorway on Sun when it was lashing down with rain. (the tyres were about 150 miles old so had been run in)
It really was a struggle to keep ahead of 1.6GL’s … okay there were some high speed runs, but what a nightmare..
Took the car out on Monday when it was bone dry down some B roads and it was fantastic again.
This got me thinking.( and driving, did about another 200 miles down B roads to try and understand the car some more) I feel the car relies far too much on pure mechanical grip, in other words any car with 400BHP mid engined, running similar tyres will generate as much grip as the 360, no matter what dampers you stick on..
I think the standard dampers are really poor. They are okay of it is dry cause they can cope, as it is a stiff setup for the dry….. but once the conditions are variable then it becomes a bit of a struggle…
I think the back setup is too soft and this affects the handling on turn in…The damping feels all wrong it just doesn’t rebound as you would expect. You get a little wobble as the weight transfers on to the front when you are breaking from high speed and then entering into a corner.. think this is pitch….
I feel that it is not supple enough in high speed corners to settle on the springs and remain steady. Again there is that transition due to the rear.
Anyway I am looking into having the dampers re-valved , and also running different springs, and a different anti roll bar..
This is to improve the wet weather handling as I think in the dry not many cars come close.
Any comments on other peoples cars…
I know 355’s also struggle in the wet. Not sure of 550’s and 575’s..
Cheers
I'm not a big fan of the 360s handling in the wet either. IMO it doesn't handle as safe and surefooted as the 355. I used to batter the 355 around corners in the rain; very stable, very safe. The 360 not so. It'll understeer, then snap into oversteer. I don't feel near as safe in the 360 as I did in the 355.
I loved the 355's handling. I think maybe I need to practice a little more
Well, no shortage of the right kind of weather for messing about...
There's a certain roundabout which is really good fun...
Take care out there!
>> Edited by ninja_eli on Thursday 6th November 19:54
I loved the 355's handling. I think maybe I need to practice a little more
Well, no shortage of the right kind of weather for messing about...
There's a certain roundabout which is really good fun... Take care out there!
>> Edited by ninja_eli on Thursday 6th November 19:54
OKEY - now where the hell have you been??? Me Itecsol have been trying to find you for ages. 
Ali - you're right mate - even though the F355 has less grip and it's responses are not quite as 'sharp' as the 360 it's a much better balanced car.
My view is that the excellent turn-in response of the 360 makes you 'feel' that the car is going to oversteer... The reality is that if you push on in a smooth manner on a steady throttle it will run wide.. BUT will then snap out into oversteer if there is ANY adjustment of the throttle..(I reported this ages ago and no-one agreed). The spiky instant nature of the fly-by-wire throttle compounds matters....
In my opinion, an amazing car but not one which is easy to master.
Hi to all the ph Ferrari/Lambo regulars.... (and Dom and Daz!!!)
>> Edited by manu on Friday 7th November 08:26
Ali - you're right mate - even though the F355 has less grip and it's responses are not quite as 'sharp' as the 360 it's a much better balanced car.
My view is that the excellent turn-in response of the 360 makes you 'feel' that the car is going to oversteer... The reality is that if you push on in a smooth manner on a steady throttle it will run wide.. BUT will then snap out into oversteer if there is ANY adjustment of the throttle..(I reported this ages ago and no-one agreed). The spiky instant nature of the fly-by-wire throttle compounds matters....
In my opinion, an amazing car but not one which is easy to master.
Hi to all the ph Ferrari/Lambo regulars.... (and Dom and Daz!!!)
>> Edited by manu on Friday 7th November 08:26
This thread reminded me of something one of the sales guys at Talacrest told me, when I asked him about his most unpleasant experiences whiles accompanying punters on test drives. (Whilst I was testing a 348.)
"It was in a 360 on a wet day" he began. Mentioning indeed that if the car had been a 355 he wouldn't have had such white knuckles...
BTW Hi manu
must pop over and show my face at Scuderia, seeing as I'm usually filling up the maz with optimax at the shell over the road from yer office. Might even be able to tempt me into a tubi
>> Edited by mr_tony on Friday 7th November 14:32
"It was in a 360 on a wet day" he began. Mentioning indeed that if the car had been a 355 he wouldn't have had such white knuckles...
BTW Hi manu
must pop over and show my face at Scuderia, seeing as I'm usually filling up the maz with optimax at the shell over the road from yer office. Might even be able to tempt me into a tubi >> Edited by mr_tony on Friday 7th November 14:32
bluesatin said:
What about me manu?
Don't say hi to Perverts!
(very much an oversight to say hi to Dom! too) Okey - give Itecsol a ring man.... his 550 has some VERY different pipes
New dampers? Hmmm... I'll email ya offline. Mr Tony - Do it - mind you I could probably get a tractor owner into a Tubi!
>> Edited by manu on Friday 7th November 15:33
He's back. Okey is back. Yeeeeaaahhhhh !!! Have read your mail Okey and find it funny. Cos even if the 360 were a 4wd and mid engined, I know for sure that you would make it break traction and have it sideways. Noone outside of a lunatic would dare drive their Rari in the manner Okey can (maybe Schumacher). As for the 550 in the wet - forget it ! My heart can't take it. I'm not sure that any car with over 400 horses is safe in the wet. But with the way we drive them, I'm not sure they are safe in the dry either. Okey remember all the traction problems I had in the dry before the camber mods? I rest my case. Okey why don't you have 'you know who' build you some dampers to your own spec? Even then though, I still can't see it holding traction when the hammer comes down.
Okey, another thing is how the hell do you heel and toe in this thing? 355 was fine, the sidewall gives you no chance to do the same in this. I've kinda accustomed myself to use half foot on brake half to blip, but the f**king accelerator is a quite a bit indented compared to the brake, so I've got to twist my foot, if you know what I mean?
I'm starting to get the hang of it, but in this weather just wanted to know if there was a better way? I've spent many an entry to a corner pissing about and messing up my line. And on occasion it looked like it was going to be costly
I'm starting to get the hang of it, but in this weather just wanted to know if there was a better way? I've spent many an entry to a corner pissing about and messing up my line. And on occasion it looked like it was going to be costly
Hey Ev, been really busy mate. !! let me know how the car is running. hear you have some Carbon air intakes... cause 480bhp is not enough...
what changes did this have ??
not so sure about the grip in the wet cause I think I should be able to do *20mph in the wet with out any problems.. Last two times I was at donnington I think it was one of the fastest cars out there in the dry, next day in the wet, I could have run round the course faster.. I think a mini went past.. (the shame)
there was no grip what so ever
I have asked them to look into standard dampers and then re valve them / springs / anti roll bars... will let you know how I get on....
Let me know if you are up for a drive..
what changes did this have ??
not so sure about the grip in the wet cause I think I should be able to do *20mph in the wet with out any problems.. Last two times I was at donnington I think it was one of the fastest cars out there in the dry, next day in the wet, I could have run round the course faster.. I think a mini went past.. (the shame)
there was no grip what so ever
I have asked them to look into standard dampers and then re valve them / springs / anti roll bars... will let you know how I get on....
Let me know if you are up for a drive..
Ali, I know what you mean by costly... !!
for heeling and toeing.. I am no pro but cause of the confined space, best drive with trainers... the smaller the better....
Still have to roll your foot on to the gas pedal though.... strange at first but you get used to it..
also found I have more room if I push the seat backwards just a touch and then straighten up the back rest..
hope it helps..
for heeling and toeing.. I am no pro but cause of the confined space, best drive with trainers... the smaller the better....
Still have to roll your foot on to the gas pedal though.... strange at first but you get used to it..
also found I have more room if I push the seat backwards just a touch and then straighten up the back rest..
hope it helps..
Being a little vertically challenged the moving the seat back thing might not work , but thanks for the suggestions. Oh well, I;ll get used to it. Missing the 355 a little though in some respects.
As always, I'm up for a drive timetable permitting, so if you sort anything out, let me know.
, but thanks for the suggestions. Oh well, I;ll get used to it. Missing the 355 a little though in some respects. As always, I'm up for a drive timetable permitting, so if you sort anything out, let me know.
my experience with Pirreli tyres in the wet is that they are sh1t. period
ok never run them on a fezza but other high perfomrance stuff and on the Tvr and they were awfull.
i went on the wet handling course at mira with my car on pirreli's and an identical car on so2'w the difference in grip was unreal...
ok never run them on a fezza but other high perfomrance stuff and on the Tvr and they were awfull.
i went on the wet handling course at mira with my car on pirreli's and an identical car on so2'w the difference in grip was unreal...
Graham said:
my experience with Pirreli tyres in the wet is that they are sh1t. period
ok never run them on a fezza but other high perfomrance stuff and on the Tvr and they were awfull.
i went on the wet handling course at mira with my car on pirreli's and an identical car on so2'w the difference in grip was unreal...
Having bit my lip on this thread for a while, seeing Graham's post has tipped me over the edge. Because I agree with him.
I don't think 360s understeer per se Manu; or if they do, I always passed straight through that bit into oversteer. BTW my definition of oversteer is you're looking out of the side window thinking f
k. Understeer: you're looking through the windscreen thinking fk. Ignore the warnings and it was always a side window moment, not a windscreen. I too think this is a grip thing. On PZeros in the wet there just isn't any. My 911 had them until quite recently as well, and I was convinced the little porky bastard was trying to kill me. However, changing the Pzeros to Conti's definitely gives me more wet grip which has restored my faith. It's still not overwhelming, but it is better. I also don't like Pzeros because they don't have a lip around the edge, which means you scrape the alloys too much.
Similar story from changing very elderly SO2s on the 456. These had clearly remembered they were once part of a tree, and the wet handling was 'a bit challenging'. They've now been changed for Pilot Sports and I don't have to back off that much in the wet.
Would be interested to know if Pzero Rossos are any better.
I thought that Autocar found that P Zero Rossos were better in the wet than Pilot Sports and Sport Contact 2's?
I had P Zero's on my 3200 and was impressed and so far this year have had an SL500 and CLK 500 cab, both on Rossos, and like them (albeit got the back of the CLK well out on some mud yesterday despite the ESP being on).
I have Sport Contact 2's on my V8 S4 and find then very noisy (not a big issue) but they seem to grip better than the Pilot Sports on my old V6 S4.
I had P Zero's on my 3200 and was impressed and so far this year have had an SL500 and CLK 500 cab, both on Rossos, and like them (albeit got the back of the CLK well out on some mud yesterday despite the ESP being on).
I have Sport Contact 2's on my V8 S4 and find then very noisy (not a big issue) but they seem to grip better than the Pilot Sports on my old V6 S4.
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