Legal Advice Please
Discussion
It's a bit of a cheek to ask, and I'm not one to expect legal advice (or anything) for free, so if I can help anyone with anything relating to Photography, I'll be pleased to pay you back.
We were commissioned to design a logo and some website designs for the launch of a posh new hotel.
We agreed a price (£2000) , and have emails from the hotel commissioning the work.
We did tons of work, all sent online, made ammendments, tweaks, fine-tuning as instructed, then after three months of working closely with them, heard nothing back.
After smelling the proverbial Rat, we made phone calls, emails, sent invoices, but still nothing.
The hotel has now launched its website, but not with our designs.
Do we have any comeback, and if we do, how do we go about getting our fee?
I know there are small claims agencys online but we've never done anything like this before, and don't want to waste time if there's no chance of a result. It wears you out.
Pursue it, or move on?
Many thanks.
Edited by Gordon Bennett on Wednesday 4th March 21:42
Absolutely go after them. This is the bane of our industry and pees me off no end.
Speaking from experience….
Always work to purchase orders from the client or confirmation of orders sent by you. This goes for new clients and old.
Make sure your terms and conditions are also valid and presented with the quote. Include within these a cancellation clause. We had a client last year that had awarded us a £190,000 contract (a local authority). They then realised that they had screwed up their procurement and could only spend £25k with us. We pointed out the cancellation clause, which would have required them to pay us a percentage of the remaining contract value – around £110k!
We didn’t see this through as the client had made a genuiene mistake and the good will we displayed has utlimately turned into work of a value higher than what we would have claimed. But it’s a very handy thing to have up your sleeve.
Good luck mate, don’t let the b
ds wear you down.
Speaking from experience….
Always work to purchase orders from the client or confirmation of orders sent by you. This goes for new clients and old.
Make sure your terms and conditions are also valid and presented with the quote. Include within these a cancellation clause. We had a client last year that had awarded us a £190,000 contract (a local authority). They then realised that they had screwed up their procurement and could only spend £25k with us. We pointed out the cancellation clause, which would have required them to pay us a percentage of the remaining contract value – around £110k!
We didn’t see this through as the client had made a genuiene mistake and the good will we displayed has utlimately turned into work of a value higher than what we would have claimed. But it’s a very handy thing to have up your sleeve.
Good luck mate, don’t let the b
ds wear you down.
Gordon Bennett said:
Legal Advice please
(Thanks.)
Being in a similar situations myself, I found the best policy is to go in systematically, fairly, give them the option of a cheap 'out', and if they stick the proverbial two fingers up, follow through with your threats.(Thanks.)
As had been said, first stop is to invoice for the work. On the invoice, warn that you support the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act and apply statutory charges as per the act on all over due invoices.
If you don't get paid on time, you immediately get a compensatory charge of £70, and the interest clock starts ticking at 8% above base until paid.
Send this invoice, with a covering letter pointing out the overdue invoice, and request payment with 7 days.
Send a letter, pointing out the overdue nature and ignored letter and warn legal action is intended.
Send a letter headed 'Final Warning of Intended Legal Action' and give them seven days or you will start immediate action.
File claim at local court, or Money Claim Online.
This is on the assumption that you have a good 'paper trail' that proves you have a contract in place.
This does NOT need to be a signed piece of paper, just the proof of what has been agreed and the work you have completed for them. Keep all their emails etc, even if it is just requesting changes, as this is proof that they were continuing to work with you.
I think mainly it's been covered...but you do need to be able to demonstrate that you have a contract for the work and that the work you have done is covered by that contract.
Assuming you have that I would either contact James and see what his co can do for you or write in the terms that Justin sets out and then issue via Money Claims Online - chances are they will ignore the claim form and you can then go for default judgment.
Hope you get it sorted.
Assuming you have that I would either contact James and see what his co can do for you or write in the terms that Justin sets out and then issue via Money Claims Online - chances are they will ignore the claim form and you can then go for default judgment.
Hope you get it sorted.
I would actually doubt a company like that would let the summons default.
The problem is usually most companies usually chalk up the situation like the OP describes as a 'loss' and not follow it up. If they do follow it up, it a way that legal action is believed anything more than a bluff, and indeed it is a bluff and not followed through.
Therefore, companies can act unscrupulously like has happened here and get away with it.
In my business career so far I have found that the majority of the time, situations like this where a company has taken the **** with you are down to one person who has been in charge of a project. When you escalate the issue to someone more senior and politely put forward the way you have been treated is unacceptable then usually things are resolved.
One issue I chased at the start of the week ended up with the head of the company writing me a short letter, outlining the 'events' so far and warning me they have 'excellent solicitors' if I want to argue.
I wrote back, detailing the actual 'events', quoting person X's own emails. It seems they pretty much lied to the boss previously, and I got a very apologetic phone call and immediate offer of settlement.
I would suggest that is likely to be the case here...
...failing that, the boss is a tw** too, and they both ignore your letters until the final warning arrives.
The problem is usually most companies usually chalk up the situation like the OP describes as a 'loss' and not follow it up. If they do follow it up, it a way that legal action is believed anything more than a bluff, and indeed it is a bluff and not followed through.
Therefore, companies can act unscrupulously like has happened here and get away with it.
In my business career so far I have found that the majority of the time, situations like this where a company has taken the **** with you are down to one person who has been in charge of a project. When you escalate the issue to someone more senior and politely put forward the way you have been treated is unacceptable then usually things are resolved.
One issue I chased at the start of the week ended up with the head of the company writing me a short letter, outlining the 'events' so far and warning me they have 'excellent solicitors' if I want to argue.
I wrote back, detailing the actual 'events', quoting person X's own emails. It seems they pretty much lied to the boss previously, and I got a very apologetic phone call and immediate offer of settlement.
I would suggest that is likely to be the case here...
...failing that, the boss is a tw** too, and they both ignore your letters until the final warning arrives.
In our case, a couple with pots of money bought a mansion up North and turned it into a luxury hotel.
All our dealings were directly with them, the owners, and throughout the six months or so we worked with them, including lunches in London, they were charming.
We had agreed the website would cost around £10,000. After doing a lot of work, we put in an invoice for 50% of the final bill. The hours were racking up.
After we put that bill in, the guy got really shirty, implying that we didn't trust him and that he would pay the final bill when the work was completed and the site up and running. (There's only two of us and we need the cashflow).
We told him we didn't work that way, and he went into a major sulk and said to forget the whole thing but to bill him for
work done so far in the form of a Rejection Fee, which we did (£2000). The rejection fee agreement was done over the phone and we have no written record of it.
So we put our rejection fee bill in, and three months later we're still waiting.
They're still around because they launched their new website last week.
All our dealings were directly with them, the owners, and throughout the six months or so we worked with them, including lunches in London, they were charming.
We had agreed the website would cost around £10,000. After doing a lot of work, we put in an invoice for 50% of the final bill. The hours were racking up.
After we put that bill in, the guy got really shirty, implying that we didn't trust him and that he would pay the final bill when the work was completed and the site up and running. (There's only two of us and we need the cashflow).
We told him we didn't work that way, and he went into a major sulk and said to forget the whole thing but to bill him for
work done so far in the form of a Rejection Fee, which we did (£2000). The rejection fee agreement was done over the phone and we have no written record of it.
So we put our rejection fee bill in, and three months later we're still waiting.
They're still around because they launched their new website last week.
Then *that* is slightly different.
As Eric says, the devil is in the detail here. You say that to ask for part payments is the way you work, but was this expressed to him before you both agreed to start work?
If not then it could be seen as yourselves who have changed the deal.
The main issue here is what you can prove with the breakdown of communications.
Playing the game out, he could deny the conversation about £2000 existed, and put forward that you changed the contract, he was unhappy and you both went separate ways.
This legally is a bit more complex as you may be forced to prove that the deal for £2000 for a rejection fee was agreed. If you sue however, it may pressure him into giving in though if he has a shred of decency.
As Eric says, the devil is in the detail here. You say that to ask for part payments is the way you work, but was this expressed to him before you both agreed to start work?
If not then it could be seen as yourselves who have changed the deal.
The main issue here is what you can prove with the breakdown of communications.
Playing the game out, he could deny the conversation about £2000 existed, and put forward that you changed the contract, he was unhappy and you both went separate ways.
This legally is a bit more complex as you may be forced to prove that the deal for £2000 for a rejection fee was agreed. If you sue however, it may pressure him into giving in though if he has a shred of decency.
We had agreed the 50% up front, but our mistake was starting the work without getting the money.
Our mistake was also letting things get too matey and chummy, and it always felt embarassing asking for money.
The clients also said in the beginning that they didn't want written contracts and that if their words and Gentlemen's Agreements weren't going to be good enough then we should not continue working with each other. If there's no trust here, they said, then let's all move on.
We needed the work and carried on. They made us feel very cheap where money was concerned.
Our mistake was also letting things get too matey and chummy, and it always felt embarassing asking for money.
The clients also said in the beginning that they didn't want written contracts and that if their words and Gentlemen's Agreements weren't going to be good enough then we should not continue working with each other. If there's no trust here, they said, then let's all move on.
We needed the work and carried on. They made us feel very cheap where money was concerned.
Gordon Bennett said:
We had agreed the 50% up front, but our mistake was starting the work without getting the money.
Our mistake was also letting things get too matey and chummy, and it always felt embarassing asking for money.
The clients also said in the beginning that they didn't want written contracts and that if their words and Gentlemen's Agreements weren't going to be good enough then we should not continue working with each other. If there's no trust here, they said, then let's all move on.
We needed the work and carried on. They made us feel very cheap where money was concerned.
To be honest in that situation, if you had come to this forum at the time, my advice would have been to stand your ground and wait for the £5k before completing any more work. If they failed to pay as agreed to sue for the full loss of profit minus your cost for work not completed, so near to £10k.Our mistake was also letting things get too matey and chummy, and it always felt embarassing asking for money.
The clients also said in the beginning that they didn't want written contracts and that if their words and Gentlemen's Agreements weren't going to be good enough then we should not continue working with each other. If there's no trust here, they said, then let's all move on.
We needed the work and carried on. They made us feel very cheap where money was concerned.
There is a particular demographic who although we always supply terms, and a 'form' to complete in a form of a contract which can be posted or faxed to us, they want to deal everything verbally. However, these are also the types which seemingly are the ones which 'forget' what has been agreed, or deny we have a contract as they didn't sign anything...
In this situation, it is them who have eroded your trust, not the other way around. Making you as the 'little guy' feel cheap though may be just their common way of working which means that it is difficult to pursue them if and when they change their mind.
If you can prove you asked for 50% up front even by a mentioning in an email or quote, then this is all the proof you need to pursue this.
Gordon Bennett said:
Not as such.
We had written (all by emails) how much it was going to cost and had agreement to go ahead with the work from the client.
But no legal written contract with terms and conditions was sent.
In 25 years we've never needed one. (until now, that is...)
No Written contract as such then but evidence of an agreement.We had written (all by emails) how much it was going to cost and had agreement to go ahead with the work from the client.
But no legal written contract with terms and conditions was sent.
In 25 years we've never needed one. (until now, that is...)
Do they dispute it, or are they just refusing to pay (becasue they cant or are not keen) If they do noy dispute it, you may get a bit more joy with a Statutory Demand, its bit nore threatening and quicker
The small claims court is fine, but can be slow to come to an end point.
Many businesses are playing the GAME at the present time, usaully disputing otherwise valid invoices to buy them time (maybe they have cash flow problems etc)
NIck
Gordon Bennett said:
We had agreed the 50% up front, but our mistake was starting the work without getting the money.
Our mistake was also letting things get too matey and chummy, and it always felt embarassing asking for money.
The clients also said in the beginning that they didn't want written contracts and that if their words and Gentlemen's Agreements weren't going to be good enough then we should not continue working with each other. If there's no trust here, they said, then let's all move on.
We needed the work and carried on. They made us feel very cheap where money was concerned.
Some people always play that game... Business is business. Personal stuff is separate. The two can be played together, but be sure in your mind which one you are playing at any one time... I used to be played at that all the time, but it just leaves you feeling stupid and the one that always seems to be on the (wrong) receiving end of it... You just need to realise when it starts to happen and avoid it from now on, no one gets the hump about it and probably respect you more for not putting up with any nonsense.Our mistake was also letting things get too matey and chummy, and it always felt embarassing asking for money.
The clients also said in the beginning that they didn't want written contracts and that if their words and Gentlemen's Agreements weren't going to be good enough then we should not continue working with each other. If there's no trust here, they said, then let's all move on.
We needed the work and carried on. They made us feel very cheap where money was concerned.
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