boost rising turbo waste gate failure?
Discussion
car: lancer gsr 1.8 turbo
Ive had a few problems in the last month with over boosting after fitting new samco throughout and removing the boost controller and even the facory boost regulator i narrowed it down to my actuator or waste gate. the problem was a boost creep symptom rising to 1.1/1.2 bar. It would hit target boost but then given time(gear dependant) would rise a little higher. on a cold day i hit the fuel cut.
i thought id make sure it was the actuator to blame but on testing it seems fine. i tied my waste gate arm fully open and took the car round the block. it was apprehensive to produce boost but as the revs went up it would rise to about .3 bar and then i took it out on the road and in 3rd it would hit .9bar on a long run.
i took it home and started to scratch my head. what do you guys think? it shouldnt produce boost with the arm open. am i going to have to take the turbo off for this one? does this sound like a waste gate failure to you? failing to fully open? just want a few more ideas before i start snapping bolts
cheers
Ive had a few problems in the last month with over boosting after fitting new samco throughout and removing the boost controller and even the facory boost regulator i narrowed it down to my actuator or waste gate. the problem was a boost creep symptom rising to 1.1/1.2 bar. It would hit target boost but then given time(gear dependant) would rise a little higher. on a cold day i hit the fuel cut.
i thought id make sure it was the actuator to blame but on testing it seems fine. i tied my waste gate arm fully open and took the car round the block. it was apprehensive to produce boost but as the revs went up it would rise to about .3 bar and then i took it out on the road and in 3rd it would hit .9bar on a long run.
i took it home and started to scratch my head. what do you guys think? it shouldnt produce boost with the arm open. am i going to have to take the turbo off for this one? does this sound like a waste gate failure to you? failing to fully open? just want a few more ideas before i start snapping bolts
cheers
Edited by allyrs on Tuesday 10th March 19:34
allyrs said:
car: lancer gsr 1.8 turbo
Ive had a few problems in the last month with over boosting after fitting new samco throughout and removing the boost controller and even the facory boost regulator i narrowed it down to my actuator or waste gate. the problem was a boost creep symptom rising to 1.1/1.2 bar. It would hit target boost but then given time(gear dependant) would rise a little higher. on a cold day i hit the fuel cut.
i thought id make sure it was the actuator to blame but on testing it seems fine. i tied my waste gate arm fully open and took the car round the block. it was apprehensive to produce boost but as the revs went up it would rise to about .3 bar and then i took it out on the road and in 3rd it would hit .9bar on a long run.
i took it home and started to scratch my head. what do you guys think? it shouldnt produce boost with the arm open. am i going to have to take the turbo off for this one? does this sound like a waste gate failure to you? failing to fully open? just want a few more ideas before i start snapping bolts
cheers
Can you elaborate what you mean by "and removing the boost controller and even the facory boost regulator"Ive had a few problems in the last month with over boosting after fitting new samco throughout and removing the boost controller and even the facory boost regulator i narrowed it down to my actuator or waste gate. the problem was a boost creep symptom rising to 1.1/1.2 bar. It would hit target boost but then given time(gear dependant) would rise a little higher. on a cold day i hit the fuel cut.
i thought id make sure it was the actuator to blame but on testing it seems fine. i tied my waste gate arm fully open and took the car round the block. it was apprehensive to produce boost but as the revs went up it would rise to about .3 bar and then i took it out on the road and in 3rd it would hit .9bar on a long run.
i took it home and started to scratch my head. what do you guys think? it shouldnt produce boost with the arm open. am i going to have to take the turbo off for this one? does this sound like a waste gate failure to you? failing to fully open? just want a few more ideas before i start snapping bolts
cheers
Edited by allyrs on Tuesday 10th March 19:34
How much boost should it get ?
With the wastegate disconnected, it sounds like the car does have some degree of ability to control boost.
What happens when you plumb the actuator directly to the compressor ?
yea sure:
i had a boost controller on the car with solenoid control. switchable between standard and high boost settings. standard boost is .8bar but with my filter and 3inch system it sat very steady at .9 bar. my high boost was set at 1 bar.
i removed this device thinking it may possibly be at fault.
secondly i removed the factory boost control mechanism found under lancers and evos battery tray which seems to bleed more air off- i recon about .2 of a bar. with that removed the car ran at about .5 bar (after time or in certain gears the boost would then creep on from this to about .9 bar)
it is at this point i had plumbed as you say the compressor to actuator. so it was still boosting but then rising. after this i removed the actuator tied the w gate open and boost can still be generated.
hope this helps.
regards
i had a boost controller on the car with solenoid control. switchable between standard and high boost settings. standard boost is .8bar but with my filter and 3inch system it sat very steady at .9 bar. my high boost was set at 1 bar.
i removed this device thinking it may possibly be at fault.
secondly i removed the factory boost control mechanism found under lancers and evos battery tray which seems to bleed more air off- i recon about .2 of a bar. with that removed the car ran at about .5 bar (after time or in certain gears the boost would then creep on from this to about .9 bar)
it is at this point i had plumbed as you say the compressor to actuator. so it was still boosting but then rising. after this i removed the actuator tied the w gate open and boost can still be generated.
hope this helps.
regards
Im sure you can feel yourself if the wastegate flap is open or not ( I assume it is a swing type actuator ? )
Often when making upgrades, you incrase the efficiency of the system. Its quite possible the wastage itself in the turbine housing was barely sufficient to control boost as standard, and you have now reached a point where it cant.
If so, remove the turbine housing and porting it for better flow, may cure your problem.
Often when making upgrades, you incrase the efficiency of the system. Its quite possible the wastage itself in the turbine housing was barely sufficient to control boost as standard, and you have now reached a point where it cant.
If so, remove the turbine housing and porting it for better flow, may cure your problem.
yea i feel like the waste gate is opening and closing correctly but again can not be totally sure.
i did realise the efficiency has changed but the mods have been done for a while and no change occured so i dont see why they just started one day?
this weekend im going to rop the exhaust- possibly return the car totally to standard and if no change then, ill take the turbo off.
good excuse to send it off to turbo technics- or upgrade to a td05
thanks for the help
i did realise the efficiency has changed but the mods have been done for a while and no change occured so i dont see why they just started one day?
this weekend im going to rop the exhaust- possibly return the car totally to standard and if no change then, ill take the turbo off.
good excuse to send it off to turbo technics- or upgrade to a td05
thanks for the help
no i returned it to standard. so i cant over boost. then when it was still over boosting i removed the standard boost control device which bleeds off more boost. so the car now ran @ 0.5 bar then i removed and tested the actuator- all was working
i then ran the car with no actuator but the waste gate flap in the fully open position. it still boosted with the waste gate open. all this is written above.
thanks
i then ran the car with no actuator but the waste gate flap in the fully open position. it still boosted with the waste gate open. all this is written above.
thanks
skid-mark said:
allyrs said:
no i returned it to standard. so i cant over boost. then when it was still over boosting i removed the standard boost control device which bleeds off more boost. so the car now ran @ 0.5 bar then i removed and tested the actuator- all was working
i then ran the car with no actuator but the waste gate flap in the fully open position. it still boosted with the waste gate open. all this is written above.
thanks
how did you manualy hold the waste gate open the turbo will still develope boost with the wastegate open but not as much if it was held shut, the actuator needs to be held against pressure/tension for it to work properly, if you can move the rod it while its conected then its faulty, if the vacuum feed to the actuator is not strong enough then it won't pull the wastegate fully open leading to overboost, also removing the dump vavle can cause a spike in the inlet keeping the wastegate shut as theres no vacuum left, cause the turbo pressure gets forced the opposite way and back out the turbo.i then ran the car with no actuator but the waste gate flap in the fully open position. it still boosted with the waste gate open. all this is written above.
thanks
I think you'll find there was more to "huh" than you clearly realise, as it seems you havent read, or perhaps just understood little about what allyrs has already tested, or indeed about how the system works.
There are so many wrongs in your previous statement, I cant be arsed explaining.
There are so many wrongs in your previous statement, I cant be arsed explaining.
Edited by stevieturbo on Thursday 12th March 00:48
skid-mark said:
stevieturbo said:
I think you'll find there was more to "huh" than you clearly realise, as it seems you havent read, or perhaps just understood little about what allyrs has already tested, or indeed about how the system works.
There are so many wrongs in your previous statement, I cant be arsed explaining.
think you'll find i do have a good understanding of how the system works deal with turbos and how the system works every day guess all the training i've had was waste of time to huh,There are so many wrongs in your previous statement, I cant be arsed explaining.
Edited by stevieturbo on Thursday 12th March 00:48
yes it is hard to try and explain fully what i ment with out pictures or diagrams i can use to back up what i said earlyer, i probably went into to much detail, if you think i'm wrong well thats your choice and up to you to prove otherwise, but with all the car's i've fixed i've never had a problem afterwards or during,
i was only giving another possible fault as friend removed dump valve off his 200sx and had same fault car was reading to much boost on over run and was cutting the fueling.
yes i have herd that porting the hole larger around the waste gate flap provides better boost control for these evo's but if the actuator isn't man enough to keep the wastegate shut then you'll have boost creep problems and over boost problems if it can't open it enough, the waste gate by passes some of the exhaust gas but not all of it.
as op has said this problem has just happened and has had the mods for awhile.
Edited by skid-mark on Thursday 12th March 19:17
Edited by skid-mark on Thursday 12th March 19:22
And still you contradict yourself in the same damn sentence !!!!
[quote] but if the actuator isn't man enough to keep the wastegate shut then you'll have boost creep problems and over boost problems if it can't open it enough
[/quote]
For a start....if the wastegate is closed, boost will climb as nothing is being bypassed !!!!!
So if it wasnt "man enough to keep the wastegate shut" then boost would fall off...not climb.
He fully explained that he tested with the wastegate actuator fully disconnected, yet boost creep was still an issue. Yet you somehow try to point to a faulty actuator ?? when he isnt even using one during the test.
[quote=skid-mark] if the vacuum feed to the actuator is not strong enough then it won't pull the wastegate fully open leading to overboost, also removing the dump vavle can cause a spike in the inlet keeping the wastegate shut as theres no vacuum left, cause the turbo pressure gets forced the opposite way and back out the turbo.
[/quote]
His car isnt a modern diesel with a VNT turbo. Vacuum does not control boost on his car.
Removing a dump valve can never cause a spike in the inlet...as it doesnt attach to the intake manifold, it attaches on the plumbing before the TB.
And again...vacuum certainly does not hold the wastegate shut. Spring tension in the actuator usually does that.
And causing a boost spike because there is no vacuum left ?? wtf ?
[/quote]
For a start....if the wastegate is closed, boost will climb as nothing is being bypassed !!!!!
So if it wasnt "man enough to keep the wastegate shut" then boost would fall off...not climb.
He fully explained that he tested with the wastegate actuator fully disconnected, yet boost creep was still an issue. Yet you somehow try to point to a faulty actuator ?? when he isnt even using one during the test.
[quote=skid-mark] if the vacuum feed to the actuator is not strong enough then it won't pull the wastegate fully open leading to overboost, also removing the dump vavle can cause a spike in the inlet keeping the wastegate shut as theres no vacuum left, cause the turbo pressure gets forced the opposite way and back out the turbo.
[/quote]
His car isnt a modern diesel with a VNT turbo. Vacuum does not control boost on his car.
Removing a dump valve can never cause a spike in the inlet...as it doesnt attach to the intake manifold, it attaches on the plumbing before the TB.
And again...vacuum certainly does not hold the wastegate shut. Spring tension in the actuator usually does that.
And causing a boost spike because there is no vacuum left ?? wtf ?
I've read through your posts and not 100% sure about what you have tested but I have had very similar problems with both of my cars.
If it were me and I'm not sure whether you've done this yet is to try it with no signal to the actuator initially and just check that it will overboost, obviously not for long but I would have though on your car you should see it spike to well over a bar initially. Assuming it does that then you probably haven't got a major turbo problem.
Then you say you have tested it with the wasetgate held open and it still crept up to 0.9 bar. You would really need to check whether it is actually being help open regardless of where the rod is. If it is still boosting then it can only really be the gate being jammed half open for whatever reason through corrosion or whatever or the spring mechanism is knackered.
Perhaps the whole assembly has broken down and is partially blocking the exhaust housing?
What it comes down to simply is it it will still produce that much boost with the wastegate open, then either;
The standard wastegate was only just man enough to cope with standard boost and now it is modified then it has that much more volume to pass that it is casuing a restriction in itself.
The wastegate isn't fully open for whatever reason.
Or there is a bloackage causing the restriction i.e jammed open or broken down.
But just by running it with uncontrolled boost should prove this....
If it were me and I'm not sure whether you've done this yet is to try it with no signal to the actuator initially and just check that it will overboost, obviously not for long but I would have though on your car you should see it spike to well over a bar initially. Assuming it does that then you probably haven't got a major turbo problem.
Then you say you have tested it with the wasetgate held open and it still crept up to 0.9 bar. You would really need to check whether it is actually being help open regardless of where the rod is. If it is still boosting then it can only really be the gate being jammed half open for whatever reason through corrosion or whatever or the spring mechanism is knackered.
Perhaps the whole assembly has broken down and is partially blocking the exhaust housing?
What it comes down to simply is it it will still produce that much boost with the wastegate open, then either;
The standard wastegate was only just man enough to cope with standard boost and now it is modified then it has that much more volume to pass that it is casuing a restriction in itself.
The wastegate isn't fully open for whatever reason.
Or there is a bloackage causing the restriction i.e jammed open or broken down.
But just by running it with uncontrolled boost should prove this....
skid-mark said:
i was only giving another possible fault as friend removed dump valve off his 200sx and had same fault car was reading to much boost on over run and was cutting the fueling.
Out of interest how do you have boost on the overrun unless you are running some degree of anti-lag?bales said:
I've read through your posts and not 100% sure about what you have tested but I have had very similar problems with both of my cars.
If it were me and I'm not sure whether you've done this yet is to try it with no signal to the actuator initially and just check that it will overboost, obviously not for long but I would have though on your car you should see it spike to well over a bar initially. Assuming it does that then you probably haven't got a major turbo problem.
Then you say you have tested it with the wasetgate held open and it still crept up to 0.9 bar. You would really need to check whether it is actually being help open regardless of where the rod is. If it is still boosting then it can only really be the gate being jammed half open for whatever reason through corrosion or whatever or the spring mechanism is knackered.
Perhaps the whole assembly has broken down and is partially blocking the exhaust housing?
What it comes down to simply is it it will still produce that much boost with the wastegate open, then either;
The standard wastegate was only just man enough to cope with standard boost and now it is modified then it has that much more volume to pass that it is casuing a restriction in itself.
The wastegate isn't fully open for whatever reason.
Or there is a bloackage causing the restriction i.e jammed open or broken down.
But just by running it with uncontrolled boost should prove this....
He does se he tested with the actuator rod fully disconnected, and boost still rose.If it were me and I'm not sure whether you've done this yet is to try it with no signal to the actuator initially and just check that it will overboost, obviously not for long but I would have though on your car you should see it spike to well over a bar initially. Assuming it does that then you probably haven't got a major turbo problem.
Then you say you have tested it with the wasetgate held open and it still crept up to 0.9 bar. You would really need to check whether it is actually being help open regardless of where the rod is. If it is still boosting then it can only really be the gate being jammed half open for whatever reason through corrosion or whatever or the spring mechanism is knackered.
Perhaps the whole assembly has broken down and is partially blocking the exhaust housing?
What it comes down to simply is it it will still produce that much boost with the wastegate open, then either;
The standard wastegate was only just man enough to cope with standard boost and now it is modified then it has that much more volume to pass that it is casuing a restriction in itself.
The wastegate isn't fully open for whatever reason.
Or there is a bloackage causing the restriction i.e jammed open or broken down.
But just by running it with uncontrolled boost should prove this....
So far...for whatever reason, it does point to a wastegate with insufficient flow.
As for the boost on closed throttle......that will make for an interesting informed response.
skid-mark said:
yeah boost creep is when you lose boost, i didn't say it would rise if the waste gate was open i said that it would over boost if it wasn't open enough.
also the op said he tested the actuator but didn't explain how, you normally need a mity-vac tester to see what vacuum can be pulled on it and see how much it's opened at req vacuum.
also i said up above about the spring tension inside the actuator keeps the wastegate shut and not vaccum so don't know how you think i've said otherwise.
i know vacuum does not control the waste gate directly on these its done electronicly with a vacuum feed to the controler.
and as for the dump valve remove one of a car and blank it off and you'll see what i'm on about with where the excess charge pressure goes and the side effects of doing this,
i would love to type down fully whats in my brain but i've not got the time to do so, so my explianations are rather short.
Boost creep is uncontrolled rising of the boost actually.also the op said he tested the actuator but didn't explain how, you normally need a mity-vac tester to see what vacuum can be pulled on it and see how much it's opened at req vacuum.
also i said up above about the spring tension inside the actuator keeps the wastegate shut and not vaccum so don't know how you think i've said otherwise.
i know vacuum does not control the waste gate directly on these its done electronicly with a vacuum feed to the controler.
and as for the dump valve remove one of a car and blank it off and you'll see what i'm on about with where the excess charge pressure goes and the side effects of doing this,
i would love to type down fully whats in my brain but i've not got the time to do so, so my explianations are rather short.
A Mityvac would be rather pointless to test how an actuator that requires positive pressure to operate. He did explain quite clearly how he tested his setup.
Vacuum does not control the wastegate at all...period. it oeprates under positive pressure. Not vacuum.
Dozens of turbo systems run no dump valve, with no real negative side effects. And the problem you explained about it causing an ecu fuel/overboost cut....is nonsense, unless an idiot has the system plumbed up totally wrong.
skid-mark said:
i know vacuum does not control the waste gate directly on these its done electronicly with a vacuum feed to the controler.
Its not vacuum at all its positive pressure that controls the wastegate!!!Even if you have a controller it still 'controls' the signal allowed to reach the actuator!! The standard boost controllers are just solenoids that pulse at whatever frequency the ecu requires to bleed off the amount of air for a given boost level.
The only 'vacuum' is that which goes to a DV i.e when you shut the throttle!
skid-mark said:
and as for the dump valve remove one of a car and blank it off and you'll see what i'm on about with where the excess charge pressure goes and the side effects of doing this,
i would love to type down fully whats in my brain but i've not got the time to do so, so my explianations are rather short.
I have run my 205 for over a year with no DV with no ill effects, if you are running massive boost pressures obviously its not ideal but it won't suddenly shatter your compressor wheel!i would love to type down fully whats in my brain but i've not got the time to do so, so my explianations are rather short.
Oh and I like the sound better, cant beat a good bit of compressor stall!!
Sorry a bit off topic but I didn't realise you (Stevieturbo) owned that Granada!!
I watched it at TOTB at Elvington and remember thinking that was my favourite car of the event! Much better than all the boosted 4 cyl cars that were there and the noise it made was
Still got lots of videos on my computer at home of it, what power is it running roughly, must be over 500!!
I watched it at TOTB at Elvington and remember thinking that was my favourite car of the event! Much better than all the boosted 4 cyl cars that were there and the noise it made was
Still got lots of videos on my computer at home of it, what power is it running roughly, must be over 500!!
stevieturbo said:
Thanks....I'd hazard a guess its over 500 
and then some...lol Dont know for sure...it might be a bit more again..
Oops I retract that statement I just watched the Youtube clip off your profile when it did a 1/4 in the 9s.....yes I think 500 is perhaps a little pessimistic and then some...lol Dont know for sure...it might be a bit more again..
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