Non - domestic rates in Hackney...

[nogginthenog]

Hi, I have a small ( 1700 sq foot ) unit in Hackney and have just had a shocking rates increase :-

08 was £5600.00

09 is £8700.00

That's over £3k PA I have to find from nowhere. All the other units in my block have had a similar increase, and we are appealing. But trying to get sense from Hackney Council may be like getting blood from the proverbial......

Is anybody out there in the same position? Or anybody done a successful rates appeal? Anyone work for Hackney or any other London Borough that have increased their charges so much? I am told that Hackney lost money in Icelandic banking and we all have to assume the position and pay up - any truth in this?

Cheers, Noggin.

[skwdenyer]

nogginthenog said:

Hi, I have a small ( 1700 sq foot ) unit in Hackney and have just had a shocking rates increase :-

08 was £5600.00

09 is £8700.00

That's over £3k PA I have to find from nowhere. All the other units in my block have had a similar increase, and we are appealing. But trying to get sense from Hackney Council may be like getting blood from the proverbial......

Is anybody out there in the same position? Or anybody done a successful rates appeal? Anyone work for Hackney or any other London Borough that have increased their charges so much? I am told that Hackney lost money in Icelandic banking and we all have to assume the position and pay up - any truth in this?

Cheers, Noggin.

With respect, Hackney don't get to decide how much they charge you for business rates. Business rates are worked out on the basis of "the list" (which is the nominal annual rent potential for every property in the country) and the national rating multiplier, which changes every year to reflect "inflation".

You can see the current and past multipliers here but, broadly, the standard multiplier has gone up from 46.2p to 48.5p, whilst the small business multiplier has gone up from 45.8p to 48.1p. So, all other things being equal, your bill should have gone up by 5% based upon the same rateable value.

However, it gets more complicated than that, assuming you qualify (or have qualified previously) for Small Business Relief. This from Business Link:

Business Link said:

In England small businesses are generally entitled to small business rate relief if the rateable value of their premises is less than £15,000 (£21,500 in London). Additional properties with rateable values below £2,200 are disregarded when considering applications for small business rate relief. However, the rateable value for such properties are included in determining whether the threshold criterion has been met.

In small business rate relief the amount of relief depends on the rateable value.

If the rateable value of the property is less than £ 5,000 , the rates are calculated using the small business multiplier, which for 2008/09 is 45.8 pence, and reduced by 50 per cent.

If the rateable value is from £5,000 to £9,999, the reduction decreases on a sliding scale of 1 per cent for every £100. For example, if the rateable value is £7,500, the rates are reduced by 25 per cent.

If the rateable value is from £10,000 to £14,999 (£21,499 in London), rates are also calculated using the small business multiplier. For 2008 /09, the small business multiplier is 45.8 pence (instead of the standard 46.2 pence).

So, the two things you need to do are as follows:

1. If you don't know it already, look up the rateable value of your premises at the VOA website
2. Decide if you qualify for Small Business Relief (see the above link) and, if so, see if this has been calculated on your last and/or current bills.
3. You may also have been affected by transitional arrangements related to the 2005 revaluation; that relief will have run out for the new "rates year". Check to see if last year's bill including transitional relief.

The Small Business Relief is very, very commonly overlooked. If you've been overcharged for earlier years then AFAIK you can reclaim any overpayment, but you need to check that out for yourself.

Any more questions, please ask.

[nogginthenog]

thanks for that - very informative!

[Chrisgr31]

I don't think you will qualify for the small business relief as I think your Rateable Value is around 18,000. You will qualify for the small business multiplier, but it won't save you much.

The rateable value is meant to represent your rental value as at 1 April 2003, is your rent around this figure?

I'd guess you have just come of transitional relief hence the large increase in rates, but I'd need nmore info to do the maths.

[skwdenyer]

Chrisgr31 said:

I don't think you will qualify for the small business relief as I think your Rateable Value is around 18,000. You will qualify for the small business multiplier, but it won't save you much.

The rateable value is meant to represent your rental value as at 1 April 2003, is your rent around this figure?

I'd guess you have just come of transitional relief hence the large increase in rates, but I'd need nmore info to do the maths.

Don't forget he's in London, so SBR threshold is £21.5k. He'll probably qualify for something.

[nogginthenog]

Chrisgr31 said:

I don't think you will qualify for the small business relief as I think your Rateable Value is around 18,000. You will qualify for the small business multiplier, but it won't save you much.

The rateable value is meant to represent your rental value as at 1 April 2003, is your rent around this figure?

I'd guess you have just come of transitional relief hence the large increase in rates, but I'd need nmore info to do the maths.

spot on with the rateable value - £18k. I guess that is what I would get if I rented it in 03 - probably less now that prospective tenants would see the big rates bill and put them off! BTW - I own the unit.

Yes - I have just come of transitional relief, whatever that is.

There are about 60 businesses within Perseverance Works, and we are getting an appeal together. I have also written to my MP, for all the good that will do...

Cheers, Noggin

[skwdenyer]

nogginthenog said:

Chrisgr31 said:

I don't think you will qualify for the small business relief as I think your Rateable Value is around 18,000. You will qualify for the small business multiplier, but it won't save you much.

The rateable value is meant to represent your rental value as at 1 April 2003, is your rent around this figure?

I'd guess you have just come of transitional relief hence the large increase in rates, but I'd need nmore info to do the maths.

spot on with the rateable value - £18k. I guess that is what I would get if I rented it in 03 - probably less now that prospective tenants would see the big rates bill and put them off! BTW - I own the unit.

Yes - I have just come of transitional relief, whatever that is.

There are about 60 businesses within Perseverance Works, and we are getting an appeal together. I have also written to my MP, for all the good that will do...

Cheers, Noggin

When the last rating list came in, some properties would have gone up, and others down. Yours must have gone up. Transitional relief was to ease the jump. In "up-and-coming" areas, the jump can have been considerable.

You should still get some Small Business Relief - are you claiming? Or does the person/business wich owns/rents/controls this building have other buildings, too?

As to your MP, etc. I'm not sure where that gets you - nothing untoward has happened here!

WRT to appeals, be careful; you can only get one go at this, and the appeal is against the last list valuation, so you need to understand what your grounds for appeal against the most recent rateable value are in law. If there are a lot of you in the same boat, you might want to consider contacting one of the many, many "no win, no fee" rating appeals specialists. But beware again; some are very poor, and you don't get another go if they cock it up for you.

But you can't just appeal on the grounds that "I think it is too much"!

If you like I can try to find some recommendations for you from people I trust in the property business.

[nogginthenog]

skwdenyer said:

nogginthenog said:

Chrisgr31 said:

I don't think you will qualify for the small business relief as I think your Rateable Value is around 18,000. You will qualify for the small business multiplier, but it won't save you much.

The rateable value is meant to represent your rental value as at 1 April 2003, is your rent around this figure?

I'd guess you have just come of transitional relief hence the large increase in rates, but I'd need nmore info to do the maths.

spot on with the rateable value - £18k. I guess that is what I would get if I rented it in 03 - probably less now that prospective tenants would see the big rates bill and put them off! BTW - I own the unit.

Yes - I have just come of transitional relief, whatever that is.

There are about 60 businesses within Perseverance Works, and we are getting an appeal together. I have also written to my MP, for all the good that will do...

Cheers, Noggin

When the last rating list came in, some properties would have gone up, and others down. Yours must have gone up. Transitional relief was to ease the jump. In "up-and-coming" areas, the jump can have been considerable.

You should still get some Small Business Relief - are you claiming? Or does the person/business wich owns/rents/controls this building have other buildings, too?

As to your MP, etc. I'm not sure where that gets you - nothing untoward has happened here!

WRT to appeals, be careful; you can only get one go at this, and the appeal is against the last list valuation, so you need to understand what your grounds for appeal against the most recent rateable value are in law. If there are a lot of you in the same boat, you might want to consider contacting one of the many, many "no win, no fee" rating appeals specialists. But beware again; some are very poor, and you don't get another go if they cock it up for you.

But you can't just appeal on the grounds that "I think it is too much"!

If you like I can try to find some recommendations for you from people I trust in the property business.

It seems that being in trendy Shoreditch is a double-edged-sword - even though I own the unit so don't have a landlord to fear, the Rates man wants his pound of flesh.

With regards to Small Business Relief - where do I go for that?

My neighbours have a trusted professional looking into the appeal, so I won't ask you for your contacts, but many thanks.

[skwdenyer]

nogginthenog said:

skwdenyer said:

nogginthenog said:

Chrisgr31 said:

I don't think you will qualify for the small business relief as I think your Rateable Value is around 18,000. You will qualify for the small business multiplier, but it won't save you much.

The rateable value is meant to represent your rental value as at 1 April 2003, is your rent around this figure?

I'd guess you have just come of transitional relief hence the large increase in rates, but I'd need nmore info to do the maths.

spot on with the rateable value - £18k. I guess that is what I would get if I rented it in 03 - probably less now that prospective tenants would see the big rates bill and put them off! BTW - I own the unit.

Yes - I have just come of transitional relief, whatever that is.

There are about 60 businesses within Perseverance Works, and we are getting an appeal together. I have also written to my MP, for all the good that will do...

Cheers, Noggin

When the last rating list came in, some properties would have gone up, and others down. Yours must have gone up. Transitional relief was to ease the jump. In "up-and-coming" areas, the jump can have been considerable.

You should still get some Small Business Relief - are you claiming? Or does the person/business wich owns/rents/controls this building have other buildings, too?

As to your MP, etc. I'm not sure where that gets you - nothing untoward has happened here!

WRT to appeals, be careful; you can only get one go at this, and the appeal is against the last list valuation, so you need to understand what your grounds for appeal against the most recent rateable value are in law. If there are a lot of you in the same boat, you might want to consider contacting one of the many, many "no win, no fee" rating appeals specialists. But beware again; some are very poor, and you don't get another go if they cock it up for you.

But you can't just appeal on the grounds that "I think it is too much"!

If you like I can try to find some recommendations for you from people I trust in the property business.

It seems that being in trendy Shoreditch is a double-edged-sword - even though I own the unit so don't have a landlord to fear, the Rates man wants his pound of flesh.

With regards to Small Business Relief - where do I go for that?

My neighbours have a trusted professional looking into the appeal, so I won't ask you for your contacts, but many thanks.

I'm afraid I didn't pay attention to the detail WRT Small Business Relief; sorry. For a property with a rateable value (in London) from £10,000 to £21,499, rates are calculated using the small business multiplier. For 2008/09, the small business multiplier was 45.8 pence (instead of the standard 46.2 pence). There's no further relief; there would be if the RV was below £10k.

So you just need to check that the bill has been calculated using the small business rate (see my previous post for this year's rate); if not, you need to ask for it be recalculated.

Out of interest, where in Shoreditch are you? I've got about 8,000 sq ft just off Brick Lane, so I know the area well. Are you using all of the space, or might you be looking to let some of it out?

[nogginthenog]

I'm in Perseverance Works :

http://www.perseveranceworks.co.uk/

or - 'behind Browns' seems to be the best way to describe it. Most blokes seem to know where that particular establishment is!

I have a couple of basic desk spaces to let, but would best suit someone in my business ( photography ) or web-design or similar.

Thanks for your advice, I will be looking closely at my bill tomorrow.

Cheers, Noggin.

[skwdenyer]

nogginthenog said:

I'm in Perseverance Works :

http://www.perseveranceworks.co.uk/

or - 'behind Browns' seems to be the best way to describe it. Most blokes seem to know where that particular establishment is!

I have a couple of basic desk spaces to let, but would best suit someone in my business ( photography ) or web-design or similar.

Thanks for your advice, I will be looking closely at my bill tomorrow.

Cheers, Noggin.

Ah-ha, yes, know it; lovely location. TBH I'm not at all surprised that your rates bill has gone up a lot; I would imagine RV on the rating list would have gone up 50-70% between the old and the new lists. As for owning the unit: well done! Sale prices are still very, very strong in that development ATM.

[nogginthenog]

skwdenyer said:

nogginthenog said:

I'm in Perseverance Works :

http://www.perseveranceworks.co.uk/

or - 'behind Browns' seems to be the best way to describe it. Most blokes seem to know where that particular establishment is!

I have a couple of basic desk spaces to let, but would best suit someone in my business ( photography ) or web-design or similar.

Thanks for your advice, I will be looking closely at my bill tomorrow.

Cheers, Noggin.

Ah-ha, yes, know it; lovely location. TBH I'm not at all surprised that your rates bill has gone up a lot; I would imagine RV on the rating list would have gone up 50-70% between the old and the new lists. As for owning the unit: well done! Sale prices are still very, very strong in that development ATM.

this place is the same as mine & remains unsold :

http://www.perseveranceworks.co.uk/for-sale-no-7-t...

It is a really nice location, and a lovely place to work. If the rates keep heading upwards though, It will squeeze me out

[skwdenyer]

nogginthenog said:

skwdenyer said:

nogginthenog said:

I'm in Perseverance Works :

http://www.perseveranceworks.co.uk/

or - 'behind Browns' seems to be the best way to describe it. Most blokes seem to know where that particular establishment is!

I have a couple of basic desk spaces to let, but would best suit someone in my business ( photography ) or web-design or similar.

Thanks for your advice, I will be looking closely at my bill tomorrow.

Cheers, Noggin.

Ah-ha, yes, know it; lovely location. TBH I'm not at all surprised that your rates bill has gone up a lot; I would imagine RV on the rating list would have gone up 50-70% between the old and the new lists. As for owning the unit: well done! Sale prices are still very, very strong in that development ATM.

this place is the same as mine & remains unsold :

http://www.perseveranceworks.co.uk/for-sale-no-7-t...

It is a really nice location, and a lovely place to work. If the rates keep heading upwards though, It will squeeze me out

Look on the VOA website (link earlier on) to see if the new RV for the 2010 revaluation is up yet. That will give you an idea of where rates are heading.

As for the sale of that other unit, well that is nearly £285 psf, which is quite a lot ahead of the c.£200 psf which commercial was going for last year. Even if it goes for a bit less than that, it is still a significant premium to the market price for that size of unit in the area.

[nogginthenog]

... and that unit isn't one of the nice brick buildings in this complex, it's one of the 'Hangars' - corrugated iron & breeze-block. It went on sale for £550k last year & I did a little dance thinking I was rich. It's still on sale though

The VOA website won't recognise my postcode, but I will persevere with it another day when it's not a sunny Friday afternoon and home is beckoning.

Cheers for the info.

[skwdenyer]

nogginthenog said:

... and that unit isn't one of the nice brick buildings in this complex, it's one of the 'Hangars' - corrugated iron & breeze-block. It went on sale for £550k last year & I did a little dance thinking I was rich. It's still on sale though

The VOA website won't recognise my postcode, but I will persevere with it another day when it's not a sunny Friday afternoon and home is beckoning.

Cheers for the info.

Yes, at £550k it would be an insane price, unless there were potential for residential. 4200 square feet in three units near me made £1.3m 18 months ago (£300 psf), but that has potential to be redeveloped (upwards) to provide resi' over commercial. £800k would have been more sensible for just commercial.

[Chrisgr31]

The 2010 values are not due to be published until late Sept early Oct. Although the VO has now produced something like 96% of all the valuations they are all the easy ones! He is now working through the difficult ones!

I did find Perservance Works in the Rating list but nmot on the VO website! Used a piece of software we used in the office. Can you PM me your unit adress and I'll look at it in more detail. There have been some good reductions in RVs in the works, but others have withdrawn. Being able to identify exactly which unit yours is will help me advise which cetegory you are likely to be in!

[nogginthenog]

Chrisgr31 said:

The 2010 values are not due to be published until late Sept early Oct. Although the VO has now produced something like 96% of all the valuations they are all the easy ones! He is now working through the difficult ones!

I did find Perservance Works in the Rating list but nmot on the VO website! Used a piece of software we used in the office. Can you PM me your unit adress and I'll look at it in more detail. There have been some good reductions in RVs in the works, but others have withdrawn. Being able to identify exactly which unit yours is will help me advise which cetegory you are likely to be in!

have PM'd you. Much obliged.

[nogginthenog]

skwdenyer said:

nogginthenog said:

... and that unit isn't one of the nice brick buildings in this complex, it's one of the 'Hangars' - corrugated iron & breeze-block. It went on sale for £550k last year & I did a little dance thinking I was rich. It's still on sale though

The VOA website won't recognise my postcode, but I will persevere with it another day when it's not a sunny Friday afternoon and home is beckoning.

Cheers for the info.

Yes, at £550k it would be an insane price, unless there were potential for residential. 4200 square feet in three units near me made £1.3m 18 months ago (£300 psf), but that has potential to be redeveloped (upwards) to provide resi' over commercial. £800k would have been more sensible for just commercial.

What do you reckon is the current £PSF for sales & rentals at the moment?

[skwdenyer]

nogginthenog said:

skwdenyer said:

nogginthenog said:

... and that unit isn't one of the nice brick buildings in this complex, it's one of the 'Hangars' - corrugated iron & breeze-block. It went on sale for £550k last year & I did a little dance thinking I was rich. It's still on sale though

The VOA website won't recognise my postcode, but I will persevere with it another day when it's not a sunny Friday afternoon and home is beckoning.

Cheers for the info.

Yes, at £550k it would be an insane price, unless there were potential for residential. 4200 square feet in three units near me made £1.3m 18 months ago (£300 psf), but that has potential to be redeveloped (upwards) to provide resi' over commercial. £800k would have been more sensible for just commercial.

What do you reckon is the current £PSF for sales & rentals at the moment?

Oooh, that's a biggie! OK, here's an example of a unit more-or-less identical to one of mine. Nice street just off Brick Lane. 1400 square feet. Good height space (nearly 5m), needs a bit of work to make it look "pretty" but not at all bad. Not all that much natural light. Could put a mezzanine in if you wanted to. 4m high double loading doors. Car parking in front. Let on an 18 month FRI lease at AFAIK £18k pa = £12.85 psf. With a bit of cosmetic work and improvement, I think it would probably make £15 psf. That would put it back to 2007 values.

According to my letting agent friends, anything that is not "quality" is struggling at the moment. Hence the £12-ish psf above, or the 60k square feet I've been offered a little further out for £3 psf! Equally, I know of another large unit on Fashion Street which has let at £28 psf, and other good quality units are making similar money. But it is slow out there.

At the lower end, rents are partly dictated by VAT considerations; many smaller users and sole traders (or groups of artists, etc.) are not VAT registered, and hence will search out those properties which have not opted to tax, or expect a lower headline rent to take the (unrecoverable) VAT into account. And of course very small units have a premium all of their own - one of the units in my buildings is a simple office, 150 sq ft, letting at £40 psf.

As regards sales, oh dear, that really is very difficult to quantify at the moment IMO, since the volume of deals is so low at the moment. A year ago, anything with residential potential would make (depending upon plot size) as much as £500 psf!! Meanwhile commercial without residential potential (but again depending upon quality) was averaging around £200-300 psf. Right now, as I say, it is a very strange market. If you've got to sell, you've probably got to sell (as it were), and the price will be determined by who has any money that they're willing to punt into the market. That latest rates bump won't help the market, nor will the impending revaluation, and so on.

I don't know the "corrugated" units at PW; do you have any photos?

[nogginthenog]

skwdenyer said:

nogginthenog said:

skwdenyer said:

nogginthenog said:

... and that unit isn't one of the nice brick buildings in this complex, it's one of the 'Hangars' - corrugated iron & breeze-block. It went on sale for £550k last year & I did a little dance thinking I was rich. It's still on sale though

The VOA website won't recognise my postcode, but I will persevere with it another day when it's not a sunny Friday afternoon and home is beckoning.

Cheers for the info.

Yes, at £550k it would be an insane price, unless there were potential for residential. 4200 square feet in three units near me made £1.3m 18 months ago (£300 psf), but that has potential to be redeveloped (upwards) to provide resi' over commercial. £800k would have been more sensible for just commercial.

What do you reckon is the current £PSF for sales & rentals at the moment?

Oooh, that's a biggie! OK, here's an example of a unit more-or-less identical to one of mine. Nice street just off Brick Lane. 1400 square feet. Good height space (nearly 5m), needs a bit of work to make it look "pretty" but not at all bad. Not all that much natural light. Could put a mezzanine in if you wanted to. 4m high double loading doors. Car parking in front. Let on an 18 month FRI lease at AFAIK £18k pa = £12.85 psf. With a bit of cosmetic work and improvement, I think it would probably make £15 psf. That would put it back to 2007 values.

According to my letting agent friends, anything that is not "quality" is struggling at the moment. Hence the £12-ish psf above, or the 60k square feet I've been offered a little further out for £3 psf! Equally, I know of another large unit on Fashion Street which has let at £28 psf, and other good quality units are making similar money. But it is slow out there.

At the lower end, rents are partly dictated by VAT considerations; many smaller users and sole traders (or groups of artists, etc.) are not VAT registered, and hence will search out those properties which have not opted to tax, or expect a lower headline rent to take the (unrecoverable) VAT into account. And of course very small units have a premium all of their own - one of the units in my buildings is a simple office, 150 sq ft, letting at £40 psf.

As regards sales, oh dear, that really is very difficult to quantify at the moment IMO, since the volume of deals is so low at the moment. A year ago, anything with residential potential would make (depending upon plot size) as much as £500 psf!! Meanwhile commercial without residential potential (but again depending upon quality) was averaging around £200-300 psf. Right now, as I say, it is a very strange market. If you've got to sell, you've probably got to sell (as it were), and the price will be determined by who has any money that they're willing to punt into the market. That latest rates bump won't help the market, nor will the impending revaluation, and so on.

I don't know the "corrugated" units at PW; do you have any photos?

In all the years I have worked at PW and taken tens of thousands of photos, I don't think I have ever felt the need to photograph my unit. Lets put it this way - it's not one of those lovely brick ones in Printing House Yard! It is extremely good space for working in though - ground floor ( I also have a basement let out to another photographer ) - big roller doors for access, 24 hour security by a team of Gurkha's! But a million miles from the Brick lane / Fashion street properties.