Discussion
Chaps
Have been doing some thinking recently and wondered what you thought.
I have an old Cyrus III amp and when compared to the stereo performance on my Yamaha RXV640RDS it absolutley trounces it.
As the Yamaha is around 5 years old and was a 500 poundish cinema amp and the Cyrus 10 years ago was a 500 pound stereo amp, how would a modern cinema amp compare to my Cyrus in the Stereo stakes?
I used to use a Micromega Stage 5 cd player but this has now been replaced by my new Marantz DVD7001 SACD/DVD player as it does 2 jobs better than the old CD player did one.
So, how quickly has amplification moved on and what sort of money would I be looking to spend on a cinema amp to at least equal or even improve on the stereo performance of my Cyrus?
Oh, perhaps I should add that I am using bi wired original NEAT Petite speakers loud speakers
Thanks, looking forward to your responses.
Pete
Have been doing some thinking recently and wondered what you thought.
I have an old Cyrus III amp and when compared to the stereo performance on my Yamaha RXV640RDS it absolutley trounces it.
As the Yamaha is around 5 years old and was a 500 poundish cinema amp and the Cyrus 10 years ago was a 500 pound stereo amp, how would a modern cinema amp compare to my Cyrus in the Stereo stakes?
I used to use a Micromega Stage 5 cd player but this has now been replaced by my new Marantz DVD7001 SACD/DVD player as it does 2 jobs better than the old CD player did one.
So, how quickly has amplification moved on and what sort of money would I be looking to spend on a cinema amp to at least equal or even improve on the stereo performance of my Cyrus?
Oh, perhaps I should add that I am using bi wired original NEAT Petite speakers loud speakers
Thanks, looking forward to your responses.
Pete
IMHO unless you a long way up the AV Receiver food chain, your Cyrus will still be better in 2 channel.
I've played this game a few years ago, and ended up with a Meridian processor feeding power amps, to replace a Naim 2 channel system, this is as good, if not better than the Naim (IMO!) in two channel mode.
davidy
I've played this game a few years ago, and ended up with a Meridian processor feeding power amps, to replace a Naim 2 channel system, this is as good, if not better than the Naim (IMO!) in two channel mode.
davidy
To be bluntly honest, you could spend a couple of K on a 'home cinema' amp and not match the performance of your Cyrus when playing music cds in stereo. You might even be better off with separate 'music' and 'cinema' systems.
Then again, you may have to spend nearer a grand to get a stereo amp in the same performance ballpark as your Cyrus, too. The stuff that's a cut above the usual high street rubbish in the music reproduction stakes has become dearer rather than cheaper over time. A late Eighties Cyrus Two was three hundred quid and would only be marginally bettered by the Three in the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't expect wonders from 'upgrading' the Three to its modern-day equivalent either.
In general, 'better' second hand kit is the way to go.
Then again, you may have to spend nearer a grand to get a stereo amp in the same performance ballpark as your Cyrus, too. The stuff that's a cut above the usual high street rubbish in the music reproduction stakes has become dearer rather than cheaper over time. A late Eighties Cyrus Two was three hundred quid and would only be marginally bettered by the Three in the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't expect wonders from 'upgrading' the Three to its modern-day equivalent either.
In general, 'better' second hand kit is the way to go.
Edited by 900T-R on Tuesday 17th March 08:25
Providing they are in good condition Amps and Speakers tend to be as good as "they are". Only when a new material or device becomes available does any difference become obvious. As a guide most valve amps are based on designs drawn in the fifties. As regards digital audio. both DVD-Audio and SACD are advances on red Book CD but that is due to advances in the storage medium.
DavidY said:
IMHO unless you a long way up the AV Receiver food chain, your Cyrus will still be better in 2 channel.
I've played this game a few years ago, and ended up with a Meridian processor feeding power amps, to replace a Naim 2 channel system, this is as good, if not better than the Naim (IMO!) in two channel mode.
davidy
I'd agree with that.I've played this game a few years ago, and ended up with a Meridian processor feeding power amps, to replace a Naim 2 channel system, this is as good, if not better than the Naim (IMO!) in two channel mode.
davidy
I had to spend about £7k on a processor and power amp (and thats a few years ago) to get anything better than the two channel performance in my Chord 2600 integrated stereo amp. Pretty much twice the price.
I would suggest at the lower end of the AV market with the all in one boxes with all the processing and seven channels of power, you are going to have to spend at least £1500 or more to get better than your two channel amp.
Looking at it logically, you are paying for the processing in one box and also 5 or 7 channels of the same amplification, that money is spread a bit thinly on each channel!
Yup, what they all said.
There haven't been any great breakthroughs in amp design in the years since your Cyrus was made, and when you start breaking down AV amps you realise how much stuff in crammed in them.
On top of that even when you have parity on the individual prices of the bits, you still have a box crammed full of electronics, which isn't the best place to preserve a pure signal without a lot of expensive circuitry and complex chassis design to isolate interference.
There haven't been any great breakthroughs in amp design in the years since your Cyrus was made, and when you start breaking down AV amps you realise how much stuff in crammed in them.
On top of that even when you have parity on the individual prices of the bits, you still have a box crammed full of electronics, which isn't the best place to preserve a pure signal without a lot of expensive circuitry and complex chassis design to isolate interference.
Interesting responses and pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. So this brings me to the next logical part of the question:
As I have (or will have) 3 HDMI sources (Sky HD, DVD/SACD, PS3 for blu ray) and 2 displays (Plasma and PJ) I may be looking to upgrade my AV amp to take care of all the video switching, therefore requiring at least 3 HDMI inputs and 2 out, and to process the TrueHD sound format.
Do you guys believe that of the AV amps in the price bracket where such specs reside, (obviously not the budget ones) I would be able to improve over the Cyrus in stereo?
If like me you think perhaps not, what solution would you recommend to handle the the video switching and facilitate being able to connect both the current Yamaha AV amp and the Cyrus amps to my stereo front speakers to take advantage of the superior stereo performance of the Cyrus, in effect creating separate AV and a music systems but using the same stereo fronts?
The Yamaha, I think, does not have a straight through pass type facility.
As I have (or will have) 3 HDMI sources (Sky HD, DVD/SACD, PS3 for blu ray) and 2 displays (Plasma and PJ) I may be looking to upgrade my AV amp to take care of all the video switching, therefore requiring at least 3 HDMI inputs and 2 out, and to process the TrueHD sound format.
Do you guys believe that of the AV amps in the price bracket where such specs reside, (obviously not the budget ones) I would be able to improve over the Cyrus in stereo?
If like me you think perhaps not, what solution would you recommend to handle the the video switching and facilitate being able to connect both the current Yamaha AV amp and the Cyrus amps to my stereo front speakers to take advantage of the superior stereo performance of the Cyrus, in effect creating separate AV and a music systems but using the same stereo fronts?
The Yamaha, I think, does not have a straight through pass type facility.
Edited by allgonepetetong on Tuesday 17th March 12:22
Edited by allgonepetetong on Tuesday 17th March 12:30
Barry
I would expect you would need to be in the £5000+ on a modern AV amp to even get a look in on your cyrus in two channel, and if you want to decode the newer HD audio off blu-ray in the future that is the way you will have to go. However there are other alternatives:-
I run a Meridian 568.2 Processor in conjunction with a 4in2out HDMI switcher and using a Logitech Harmony remote can control sources easily, switching audio and video automatically, however all my audio is sent to the Meridian processor using SP/DIF co-ax or optical links. The Meridian processor is excellent in two channel as well, as you would expect with a company of Meridian's heritage, but it did cost it's original owner in excess of £4K, to which you also have to add power amps.
But if you went for one of the newer Meridian processors such as the G68, these have an input available to accept multi channel audio (as standard)(and can be used in conjubction with Meridians new HDMI decoder the HD621 to route the new HD Audio formats (as LPCM) to the processor). The G68 units area vailable for around £2K-£2.5K second hand, again you will need to add power amps (The HD621 is around £1500 new)
One thing you should note is that Sky does not output 5.1 audio via the HDMI it is only available through the co-ax or optical connector (depending which sky box you have)
Alternatively if your Cyrus amplifier has a unity gain input then you could use the pre-out option on the AV amp to drive the front L-R speakers through the Cyrus unit. (if it doesn't have unity gain, then you will have to calibrate the AV system to a set volume control on the Cyrus)
HTH it is a minefield out there!
davidy
I would expect you would need to be in the £5000+ on a modern AV amp to even get a look in on your cyrus in two channel, and if you want to decode the newer HD audio off blu-ray in the future that is the way you will have to go. However there are other alternatives:-
I run a Meridian 568.2 Processor in conjunction with a 4in2out HDMI switcher and using a Logitech Harmony remote can control sources easily, switching audio and video automatically, however all my audio is sent to the Meridian processor using SP/DIF co-ax or optical links. The Meridian processor is excellent in two channel as well, as you would expect with a company of Meridian's heritage, but it did cost it's original owner in excess of £4K, to which you also have to add power amps.
But if you went for one of the newer Meridian processors such as the G68, these have an input available to accept multi channel audio (as standard)(and can be used in conjubction with Meridians new HDMI decoder the HD621 to route the new HD Audio formats (as LPCM) to the processor). The G68 units area vailable for around £2K-£2.5K second hand, again you will need to add power amps (The HD621 is around £1500 new)
One thing you should note is that Sky does not output 5.1 audio via the HDMI it is only available through the co-ax or optical connector (depending which sky box you have)
Alternatively if your Cyrus amplifier has a unity gain input then you could use the pre-out option on the AV amp to drive the front L-R speakers through the Cyrus unit. (if it doesn't have unity gain, then you will have to calibrate the AV system to a set volume control on the Cyrus)
HTH it is a minefield out there!
davidy
There are a number of ways around this, which you may like to varying degrees 
EDIT: With many of the above you would need a 4-2 HDMI switch box which can be had for £100-£300ish depending on the brand you go for.
- Yamaha Z7 is supposed to be pretty good with music. However, all amps do not sound the same, and this is also true for AVamps. So you may love or hate the stereo sound of the Z7, just as you may love or hate the sound of other £500 stereo amps.
- Upgrade the power amp section of your current or a new entry/ mid range AV amp by either; adding a stereo power amp or a pair of mono blocks to the front 2 channels, or adding a 5/7 channel power amp for all the channels.
- Get a couple of speaker switch boxes which will allow you to have separate stereo and AV systems sharing the front speakers.
- Replace both amps with a pre-amp/ processor and a multi-channel power amp/ collection of stereo and/ or mono block power amps. Ex-demo deals can be had for the likes of the Audiolab 8000AP/ 8000X7, and many other multi-channel power amps. You could always go the way of a decent DD/ DTS legacy processor, such as the Cyrus whatever it's called and some matching Cyrus power amps.
- Replace both amps with a legacy battleship class Dennon or Yamaha DD/ DTSAV Receiver from a few years ago. Again can be found on ebay supprisingly cheap.
EDIT: With many of the above you would need a 4-2 HDMI switch box which can be had for £100-£300ish depending on the brand you go for.
DavidY said:
I would expect you would need to be in the £5000+ on a modern AV amp to even get a look in on your cyrus in two channel...
I don't think you'll have to spend quite that much, even the Audiolab 8000AP/ 8000X7 (£2500ish) would be a massive stereo upgrade. Rotel offer a solution which would also leave the Cyrus III standing. And if you look at the used market there are bargins to be had as long as you don't mind forsaking HD Audio.Edited by Mr_Yogi on Tuesday 17th March 13:02
IMHO having the facility to decode the newest HD audio formats is nice, but shouldn't really be a main buying consideration.
A lot of blu-ray players including the PS3 have the facility to take the HD audio and run it at the highest bitrate possible in DD or DTS so 'normal' amps still get an upgrade over DVD quality sound.
It is worth remembering that for the specification and design of both DD and DTS was around the fact that when they are played at the highest bitrate the difference between the compressed DD/DTS signal and the uncompressed audio should be imperceptible to the human ear.
The problem with DVD was there was not enough data to hold the audio at the highest bitrate, so although DVD sound is great it fell just below that. Data capacity is not a problem for blu-ray though.
I read a recent article where testers went to both the Dolby and DTS money no object listening rooms to hear the difference, and even with golden ears and a perfect, money no object gear the difference was very very small. In a normal living room with normal gear it is not going to be there.
So, rather than buy a new amp to get the TrueHD badge, I would recommend going for better, older gear.
A lot of blu-ray players including the PS3 have the facility to take the HD audio and run it at the highest bitrate possible in DD or DTS so 'normal' amps still get an upgrade over DVD quality sound.
It is worth remembering that for the specification and design of both DD and DTS was around the fact that when they are played at the highest bitrate the difference between the compressed DD/DTS signal and the uncompressed audio should be imperceptible to the human ear.
The problem with DVD was there was not enough data to hold the audio at the highest bitrate, so although DVD sound is great it fell just below that. Data capacity is not a problem for blu-ray though.
I read a recent article where testers went to both the Dolby and DTS money no object listening rooms to hear the difference, and even with golden ears and a perfect, money no object gear the difference was very very small. In a normal living room with normal gear it is not going to be there.
So, rather than buy a new amp to get the TrueHD badge, I would recommend going for better, older gear.
Edited by JustinP1 on Tuesday 17th March 14:23
Agree with Justin here, I borrowed an Onkyo N906 and used these as a processor only and kept the rest of my system the same. I (and my wife) felt that in all cases the Meridian 568.2 at max bit rate DD/DTS was better than the Onkyo with TrueHD/DTS-MA. I suspect that most of this will be down to the quality of the analogue stage in the Meridian, but it also goes to show that a quality oldie can beat the new kids, even though it's not all bells and whistles.
I have taken the decision for the time being to stay with the old formats, but have upgraded to BluRay so enjoy the superior picture quality and the DD/DTS at max bit rates.
davidy
I have taken the decision for the time being to stay with the old formats, but have upgraded to BluRay so enjoy the superior picture quality and the DD/DTS at max bit rates.
davidy
What they said............ second hand amps and speakers will outperform equivalent priced new gear.
Many renowned speaker makers out there ( AVI, Living Voice, Sonus Faber, Impulse, Dunlavy, ATC, NEAT ) who still use/d old tech treated paper cones when newer and allegedly superior alternatives such Kevlar, Carbon fibre, various metals / ceramics and injection moulded plastics were available. There are exceptions such as B&W, Focal / Wilson Audio and Avalon Acoustics who now use the newer materials but real moving coil progress has only been made in the last few years. Electrostatic speakers have hardly moved since the Quad ESL57 was introduced 50+ years ago.
Many renowned speaker makers out there ( AVI, Living Voice, Sonus Faber, Impulse, Dunlavy, ATC, NEAT ) who still use/d old tech treated paper cones when newer and allegedly superior alternatives such Kevlar, Carbon fibre, various metals / ceramics and injection moulded plastics were available. There are exceptions such as B&W, Focal / Wilson Audio and Avalon Acoustics who now use the newer materials but real moving coil progress has only been made in the last few years. Electrostatic speakers have hardly moved since the Quad ESL57 was introduced 50+ years ago.
Edited by CRACKIE on Tuesday 17th March 21:42
Thanks guys for the interesting responses.
From your input, I ink it would be best to combine my stereoand AV amps to utilise them to their best advantage. From what I understand the best way to do this is:
Feed AV amp with DVD, Blu Ray and Sky HD audio scources.
Feed Cyrus amp directly with Stereo music input (Squeezebox)
Feed all video into a 3 in 2 out HDMI switcher
Use line out for F/R from AV amp to Stereo amp and balance the stereo output to AV amp to forego the need for speaker switches
Run my sub woofer from the Cyrus amp to increase bass extension for the small NEAT R/L
Possibly invest in another sub and run from AV amp for movie slam effect.
Am I correct in my understanding?
thanks for your input
Barry
From your input, I ink it would be best to combine my stereoand AV amps to utilise them to their best advantage. From what I understand the best way to do this is:
Feed AV amp with DVD, Blu Ray and Sky HD audio scources.
Feed Cyrus amp directly with Stereo music input (Squeezebox)
Feed all video into a 3 in 2 out HDMI switcher
Use line out for F/R from AV amp to Stereo amp and balance the stereo output to AV amp to forego the need for speaker switches
Run my sub woofer from the Cyrus amp to increase bass extension for the small NEAT R/L
Possibly invest in another sub and run from AV amp for movie slam effect.
Am I correct in my understanding?
thanks for your input
Barry
Yeah, that's how I ran my setup for a couple of years, AV amp(front L&R pre out) to Stereo Pre amp(aux in):
Use a SPL Meter to find out where to set the volume on the integrated amp for AV use and commit to memory
Stereo mode
===========
CD player -> stereo pre amp -> stereo power amp -> front speakers
.
.
AV Mode
=======
DVD Player -> AV Amp -> stereo pre amp -> stereo power amp -> front speakers
-> centre speaker
-> rear speakers
Use a SPL Meter to find out where to set the volume on the integrated amp for AV use and commit to memory
Gassing Station | Home Cinema & Hi-Fi | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff