Settle a long-term debate: Italian cooking and tomatoes

[The Dude]

I read somewhere, years ago, that authentic Italian ragu would not have contained any tomatoes, pretty much because tomatoes are not native to Italy and were introduced there in the 16th century.

I cannot convince anyone as, quite fairly, it's normal to associate bolognese etc. with a tomato based sauce.

Can anyone shed any light on this, or tell me I'm totally wrong?

[Plotloss]

Ragu, a derivation of the French, Ragout a noun derived from Ragouter (to revive the taste)

A traditional Ragout would have been meat and mirepoux (Soffrito in Italian) the classic mix of onions, carrots and the devil's vegetable.

So if tomatoes werent available, it is conceivable that they wouldnt have been added to the ragout.

ETA: First mention of tomatoes in european literature was by the italians in 1521 as 'golden apples', red tomatoes were said to be introduced to Italy by two catholic priests many years later. The first cookbook to mention tomatoes was published in Naples in 1692.

[The Dude]

That settles it then.

Bought some wild boar with the intention of making a wild boar lasagne - it's definitely not going to have tomatoes in it now whether guests think it's wrong or not.

[Chim Girl]

Larousse concludes that ragu is the tomato based bolognese sauce, and, as Plotloss stated, ragoût would not have tomato in it. It is also the name of plain or mixed garnish, thickened with white or brown liaison (thickening agent), with a meat or vegatable stock. The book says - for brown ragoût - brown the meat in fat, then sprinkle with a little flour, cooked a little and finally moistened with clear stock or water.

(Larousse Gastronomique, 2001)

[navier_stokes]

Ragu is just a traditional meat sauce. As with most things in Italy, the most common varies widely with region.

Ragu alla Bolognese is (obviously) common in the UK so the terms Ragu and Bolognese become synomonous over here, hence why everyone thinks ragu is with tomatoes.

See the Silver Spoon (Italy's best selling cookbook of all time, and is now available translated) for more Ragu sauces, that do not contain tomatoes.

According to the Silver Spoon, it is derived from the French term, but is not necessarily the same thing.

[Noger]

Davidson also suggests that an orginal ragu would not have had tomatoes. But that nowadays a "correct" ragu has a light taste of them.

Also points to this Spanish painting from 1646 The Angel's kitchen, where angels are preparing a dish or tomato, aubergine and some pumpkiny thing.

[pugwash4x4]

bah you want to convince people that Pizza's were invented in the UK before you start worrying about Ragus!