Are early S1 cars the best?
Discussion
I've just been reading the technical details about the evolution of the Elise and it seems to read as if they have just been made stronger, heavier, safer, more comfortable over the years but as a "drivers car" dulled it down. Things like Metal Matrix brakes replaced for iron, hub carriers alloy replaced for steel, air con, bigger wheels, abs, traction control, all adding to weight down the line.
To drive the cars is there a point where you notice these changes and think its been a backwards progression?
I've been thinking would it make more sense to get an S2 with the 2zz-fe lump which isn't that far off honda power and try to lighten the car, strip it back to more of a racer or would it never result in a car as good as a Honda conversion early S1?
Can an S2 be made to weigh the same as an early S1 without huge expense?
To drive the cars is there a point where you notice these changes and think its been a backwards progression?
I've been thinking would it make more sense to get an S2 with the 2zz-fe lump which isn't that far off honda power and try to lighten the car, strip it back to more of a racer or would it never result in a car as good as a Honda conversion early S1?
Can an S2 be made to weigh the same as an early S1 without huge expense?
'Best' depends on your intended use. If we exclude the 2-11 then the two regular production extremes of the theme are the early 118 bhp S1 and the 240bhp S2 Exige S PP. I have a 99 S1 which is a bit of a mid point in the S1 production run. It lacks the boot bag (I have a moulded box) and MMC discs (I have cast iron) but has the ali hub carriers. It probably weighs somewhere around the 760kg mark. On track (and road) it feels and is wonderfully nimble and agile with bags of grip (uprated dampers and springs and Toyo 888s). At the the end of the scale the Exige I've mentioned weighs over 900kg and if you step out of my car into one it feels it. Going from a regular car to the Exige would be a revelation however.
I think you'll find most people regularly tracking their cars would have done away with MMCs anyway and if you're looking to Honda the car then I doubt they'd be up to the job.
I think regluar you can find regular Exige S now advertised at under £25k.
Alternatively buy a goodish S1 for about £8k, spend £10k on the Honda convrsion and about £3.5k on brakes/suspension. Not a lot in it if you do some cosmetic work to the S1 as well but in the right hands I reckon the Honda S1 would drive away from the Exige.
If you're looking for an occasional drive/track car then I'd go the S1 route.
If you want more regular road use then the Exige S.
I think you'll find most people regularly tracking their cars would have done away with MMCs anyway and if you're looking to Honda the car then I doubt they'd be up to the job.
I think regluar you can find regular Exige S now advertised at under £25k.
Alternatively buy a goodish S1 for about £8k, spend £10k on the Honda convrsion and about £3.5k on brakes/suspension. Not a lot in it if you do some cosmetic work to the S1 as well but in the right hands I reckon the Honda S1 would drive away from the Exige.
If you're looking for an occasional drive/track car then I'd go the S1 route.
If you want more regular road use then the Exige S.
I thought that the mechanical mods were more for durability or cost. As in not a really significant variation in mass between ally hub carriers and steel ones (ceteris paribus, strength wise). The MMC brakes were a supplier problem IIRC.
The big weight increase in the later cars was more due to 'comfort' wasn't it? Bigger (1 inch diameter increase) wheels must have some effect, but the 10s of kgs of additional mass must mostly be due to the sound deadening, comfier seats, better heater / ventilation, and of course the air con on many cars.
So yeah, if ultimate lightness, rawness and 'purity' (in quotes because it's a nebulous concept IMO) matter, then the early S1s are the bomb.
However, the early S1s had many large compromises that made them pretty unsuitable as the ultimate daily-usable sports car for the average enthusiast. The MMC brakes weren't easily replaceable (are they simple service items now, or has everyone changed to iron discs?), the roof and roof / window seals were bloody abysmal, and anything other than a standard 118 bhp car is a bloody noisy experience and earplugs are necessary (for all but the hardcore) if you want to drive it any distance. I'm not going to mention the engine because I don't really see the HGF thing as a big deal considering that I've always been a Porsche fan and their watercooled engines are even worse...
What am I getting at?? Well if the car is not even a borderline usable daily car for the majority of enthusiasts (ignoring those with dehumidified garages at home, a short drive to work where another garage awaits, of course) then things like Caterfields start making sense too.
Lotus sensibly decided to grow the appeal of their cars (which look beautiful, and even attract non-enthusiasts, something a Seven would never do) by making them a little more comfortable. Simple stuff like window seals that keep the water out, seats that let you drive 4-500 miles before getting backache, and ambient noise whilst cruising that doesn't require earplugs or a helmet. And, IMO, that's a good thing. Elises are simple, and for those that *want* the hardcore, there is still a good supply. The only reason S1s are selling fast now is due to FX rates and they're going to Europe. Trichet isn't exactly being pro-active with the credit market problem so I'd guess that whilst the EUR will drop against USD further, hopefully GBP will start to retain a balance with EUR (their economies are likely to hit our problems soon).
Personally, having had an S1, an S1.5 (VXT) and now the S2 Exige... the VXT was the most comfortable on long journeys but the Exige is the best compromise. It's quick, it has sharper handling than the VXT but still can do 400 mile trips without killing me.
The S1 was 200 kg lighter than both of them! But the sheer amount of unpleasant noise and paranoia about engine overheating made it bloody hard work. And for bloody hard work, I may as well have been in a Caterfield. Yes, my current car weighs far too much by Lotus standards (nearly a tonne with me in it) but it still feels *really* light compared to anything else I've driven (short of the S1) - but the S1 had a lot less torque.
If I could magic my old S1 back, and take them both round Brands with my current driving skill and circuit knowledge (it's my local track, 10 minutes away...) - I'd be really interested to find which one is the fastest...
Basically, this rambling post is all about niches. The current 800-1000 kg Lotuses are in their own niche. The early S1s were very light, but the compromises made to achieve this lightness made them, IMO, in competition with lightweight specials like Sevens and Ginettas, both of which have higher power-to-weight ratios (and considerably less tricky handling).
I reckon Lotus are better in their current niche. An Exige above 1000 kg would be a problem because Noble are there, and they're pretty quick (I owned an M12 for a while - the Lotus is a better track car, but the Noble was cool
)
The big weight increase in the later cars was more due to 'comfort' wasn't it? Bigger (1 inch diameter increase) wheels must have some effect, but the 10s of kgs of additional mass must mostly be due to the sound deadening, comfier seats, better heater / ventilation, and of course the air con on many cars.
So yeah, if ultimate lightness, rawness and 'purity' (in quotes because it's a nebulous concept IMO) matter, then the early S1s are the bomb.
However, the early S1s had many large compromises that made them pretty unsuitable as the ultimate daily-usable sports car for the average enthusiast. The MMC brakes weren't easily replaceable (are they simple service items now, or has everyone changed to iron discs?), the roof and roof / window seals were bloody abysmal, and anything other than a standard 118 bhp car is a bloody noisy experience and earplugs are necessary (for all but the hardcore) if you want to drive it any distance. I'm not going to mention the engine because I don't really see the HGF thing as a big deal considering that I've always been a Porsche fan and their watercooled engines are even worse...
What am I getting at?? Well if the car is not even a borderline usable daily car for the majority of enthusiasts (ignoring those with dehumidified garages at home, a short drive to work where another garage awaits, of course) then things like Caterfields start making sense too.
Lotus sensibly decided to grow the appeal of their cars (which look beautiful, and even attract non-enthusiasts, something a Seven would never do) by making them a little more comfortable. Simple stuff like window seals that keep the water out, seats that let you drive 4-500 miles before getting backache, and ambient noise whilst cruising that doesn't require earplugs or a helmet. And, IMO, that's a good thing. Elises are simple, and for those that *want* the hardcore, there is still a good supply. The only reason S1s are selling fast now is due to FX rates and they're going to Europe. Trichet isn't exactly being pro-active with the credit market problem so I'd guess that whilst the EUR will drop against USD further, hopefully GBP will start to retain a balance with EUR (their economies are likely to hit our problems soon).
Personally, having had an S1, an S1.5 (VXT) and now the S2 Exige... the VXT was the most comfortable on long journeys but the Exige is the best compromise. It's quick, it has sharper handling than the VXT but still can do 400 mile trips without killing me.
The S1 was 200 kg lighter than both of them! But the sheer amount of unpleasant noise and paranoia about engine overheating made it bloody hard work. And for bloody hard work, I may as well have been in a Caterfield. Yes, my current car weighs far too much by Lotus standards (nearly a tonne with me in it) but it still feels *really* light compared to anything else I've driven (short of the S1) - but the S1 had a lot less torque.
If I could magic my old S1 back, and take them both round Brands with my current driving skill and circuit knowledge (it's my local track, 10 minutes away...) - I'd be really interested to find which one is the fastest...
Basically, this rambling post is all about niches. The current 800-1000 kg Lotuses are in their own niche. The early S1s were very light, but the compromises made to achieve this lightness made them, IMO, in competition with lightweight specials like Sevens and Ginettas, both of which have higher power-to-weight ratios (and considerably less tricky handling).
I reckon Lotus are better in their current niche. An Exige above 1000 kg would be a problem because Noble are there, and they're pretty quick (I owned an M12 for a while - the Lotus is a better track car, but the Noble was cool
)Ideally if you're after the purest Elise you want a mid-life S1... late enough that they ironed out the niggles, early enought not to have started to put on weight. Anything up to about July '98 still has the good (light) bits but has the later cant rails, door seals etc.
For pure pace/rawness you'll aways be better off with the earlier car, and modding it.... however this is an expensive option that won't pay dividens if/when you come to sell
For pure pace/rawness you'll aways be better off with the earlier car, and modding it.... however this is an expensive option that won't pay dividens if/when you come to sell
cyberface said:
If I could magic my old S1 back, and take them both round Brands with my current driving skill and circuit knowledge (it's my local track, 10 minutes away...) - I'd be really interested to find which one is the fastest...
Cyber - I've been told that the power to weight is more or less the same between an S1 with 165bhp on Nitrons and AO48's -v- an Exige S so I'd expect the times around BH "Indy" will be very similar ... well certainly that's my experience FWIW.OP - It's possible to get weight off an S2 but it can get expensive of you start replacing the bits you take off with light CF parts etc. If it's ultimately lightness you want then going for an early S1 or perhaps one of the earliest S2's at least gets you closer to that objective.
As for a Toyota car (n/asp or FI in standard trim) taking on a Honda'd S1 - you need to remember that whilst the actual figures are not too disimilar, the Honda unit punches harder and faster. It's actual real life performance is superior (assuming it's the same driver) - and that's before you take into account the 200kg weight advantage.
But as the others have pointed out it's horses for courses with compromises depending upon what you what and expect.
Good luck - it's a great adventure whichever route you choose
Edited by bjc388 on Sunday 29th March 12:41
"Can an S2 be made to weigh the same as an early S1 without huge expense"
an early S2 and late S1 weigh within 10kg of each other ...hence an 02 S2 With Honda can wiegh the same as an S1 Honda
when you talk about later S2s its when the Toyota engine got added (along with other bits like BAS) that the base weight went up by 80kg ...which usually ended up 100-120Kg with a "touring pack" etc (30 odd kg on its it)
for a comfy, road going Elise with a reliable 220-400bhp I would have an 2002 ish S2 with a Honda engine, and build my own ...in fact ...just like I did before
an early S2 and late S1 weigh within 10kg of each other ...hence an 02 S2 With Honda can wiegh the same as an S1 Honda
when you talk about later S2s its when the Toyota engine got added (along with other bits like BAS) that the base weight went up by 80kg ...which usually ended up 100-120Kg with a "touring pack" etc (30 odd kg on its it)
for a comfy, road going Elise with a reliable 220-400bhp I would have an 2002 ish S2 with a Honda engine, and build my own ...in fact ...just like I did before
I like the early (K-series) S2s best, handling wise. The S1 is rawer but the suspension was built to a budget and it shows when you drive a standard one on a rough road. Even my late S2 111S only weighs something like 70kg more than an early S1. My perfect Elise would be mine with a Honda engine and slightly wider front tyres.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 29th March 15:16
by default, different models/years did have their own handling traits/set-up within a certain degree ...however if you are building your own, engine conversion Elise, you will be fitting an aftermarket set-up, sprung for the new engine, and set-up to you own spec.....to be honest, and Elise, is an Elise i.e. anythying on an Elise chassis can be "made to handle" like a.n.other factory Elise/Exige/340R - its different just different shocks/springs/geo/ARB usually
..the Elise chassis has been around so long now, that there isnt much that hasnt been done before, and there is an excellent network of specialists you can build you what you want and make it handle like you want...its just a case of what you want and how deep are your pockets
..the Elise chassis has been around so long now, that there isnt much that hasnt been done before, and there is an excellent network of specialists you can build you what you want and make it handle like you want...its just a case of what you want and how deep are your pockets
smiles1 said:
I have weighed my 98 R reg s1 honda elise and my friends 2002 s2 (sports tourer) honda elise on the weigh scales at Donington.
Both had 25 Litres of fuel, n/a honda, nitrons, ali-bells and no driver in each.
The early s1 was 770kg, and the early s2 810kg
Your car felt really light and nimble, go kart like in fact. Thats whats made me want one so much. My MX5 is 940kg and a bit more power so as you know not a lot in it on the straights, your car in the corners though was amazing, it felt more like a Caterham, made my MX5 feel boat like. Both had 25 Litres of fuel, n/a honda, nitrons, ali-bells and no driver in each.
The early s1 was 770kg, and the early s2 810kg
For me to go to a late or early tuned Elise I'd have to sell both my MR2 daily driver and my MX5 track car and save a bit more. It'd be an outlay of about 40% more than I've ever spent on a single car before so I want to get it right, it'd also have to do the two roles of daily driver (40 mile B road round trip commute) and be track car.
I don't want something thats a pig on the road, I bought my MR2 as I found my MX5 too hard work in the winter (no carpets, heating or anything else), so don't want to return to that level of "raw"...
I'm sure you wouldn't regret the move to a honda in an early s1, but as much as I love mine I wouldn't like to use it as an everyday car. My friends honda'd s2 is a much more civil car on the road and doesn't feel as harsh (both are running the same suspension) maybe its just that he's got more padding in his seats :lol:
Hope to catch up with you at a trackday soon Steve
Hope to catch up with you at a trackday soon Steve
kambites said:
I like the early (K-series) S2s best, handling wise. The S1 is rawer but the suspension was built to a budget and it shows when you drive a standard one on a rough road. Even my late S2 111S only weighs something like 70kg more than an early S1. My perfect Elise would be mine with a Honda engine and slightly wider front tyres.
Often wondered, if you didn't have an Elise, what would you drive?Edited by kambites on Sunday 29th March 15:16
why bother stripping weight out of an S2 with the obvious effect on resale. You might possibly get 50 kg out of it which would be about 5% of the all up inc driver. Easier and cheaper would be to get 10bhp more and that might add to the value. Same power to weight result.
Are you sure you'd notice a difference either way?
Are you sure you'd notice a difference either way?
bordseye said:
why bother stripping weight out of an S2 with the obvious effect on resale. You might possibly get 50 kg out of it which would be about 5% of the all up inc driver. Easier and cheaper would be to get 10bhp more and that might add to the value. Same power to weight result.
Are you sure you'd notice a difference either way?
Similar power to weight will mean similar acceleration. Lower overall weight will benefit under braking and cornering. So yes, you will notice the difference if driving on the limit (on track).Are you sure you'd notice a difference either way?
kambites said:
300bhp/ton said:
Often wondered, if you didn't have an Elise, what would you drive?
A VX220? 
In the absence of a lightweight Lotus mid-engined sportscar (whether badged Lotus or Vauxhall) the only other car I can think of is the Toyota MR2, either mk1 or mk3 - both are light... Not much else out there competition-wise, which is probably why the Elise did so well
bordseye said:
why bother stripping weight out of an S2 with the obvious effect on resale. You might possibly get 50 kg out of it which would be about 5% of the all up inc driver. Easier and cheaper would be to get 10bhp more and that might add to the value. Same power to weight result.
Are you sure you'd notice a difference either way?
That's not the Lotus way.Are you sure you'd notice a difference either way?
I think the S1 and S2 are both marvellous cars, but the way I look on it is that the S1 was the car which had every single engineer and designer working on, tearing apart and starting again - the early S1's therefore being the true result of all their desires, work and spirit.
A Lotus is (was) born, as they said.
The S2 is then a soft compromise of the original design, and a damn good one at that.
But as I've said, for true correct 'feel', you need a S1 in Lotus racing Green. From that car onwards, you get the impression it is more the make-up department than the engineers who made the adjustments.
(Sorry, that sounds harsher and more attacking than meant!)
A Lotus is (was) born, as they said.
The S2 is then a soft compromise of the original design, and a damn good one at that.
But as I've said, for true correct 'feel', you need a S1 in Lotus racing Green. From that car onwards, you get the impression it is more the make-up department than the engineers who made the adjustments.
(Sorry, that sounds harsher and more attacking than meant!)
cyberface said:
kambites said:
300bhp/ton said:
Often wondered, if you didn't have an Elise, what would you drive?
A VX220? In the absence of a lightweight Lotus mid-engined sportscar (whether badged Lotus or Vauxhall) the only other car I can think of is the Toyota MR2, either mk1 or mk3 - both are light... Not much else out there competition-wise, which is probably why the Elise did so well
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff