NIP and fourteen days.

[Julian64]

I did an obvious gotcha passed a Kent partnership scameravan 15 days ago. Having searched the forum could someone in the know sum up whether this means I am now free and clear, or whether they can send me the NIP after fourteen days and press the case?

If a NIP arrives now do I fill it in with a letter saying its unlawful or do I refuse to fill it in?

Thanks. :fingerscrossed:

[tonyrec]

Providing the car is registered to you then you will be ok.
(If they cant get it out in 14 days its their prob)

[Julian64]

Thanks Tony. I assume they will still send the NIP however late. Do I fill in the NIP and point the mistake out to them or just refuse to fill in the NIP.
And which bit of what can I quote?

Strangely yesterday I found the perfect way to drive slower. I just wound the windows down in the Cerb. Felt like I was doing 150, and anything above 70mph and my hands went numb.

[tonyrec]

Point out the mistake to them.
You probably wont hear anything if its over the time limit.....and i like the way you are slowing down.
I do that all the time, that exhaust note is addictive...(what do you prescribe?)

[Julian64]

My best prescription is to replace the stereo system in your car with a black plastic fasica panel that has a yellow smiley face on it with the words don't panic written on it.

I haven't really used the stereo since buying the cerb, worried that if I turn on magic FM and close my eyes I'll get BMW flashbacks while driving the Cerb. , assuming of course, I could actual pick that up on the Cerb

Another Surreal journey yesterday in the cerb was driving a friend to a Skoda garage in tonbridge to pick up his new fabia. Parked in their forcourt she looked like a rose amongst the thorns.

[streaky]

At 70mph (naturally) with the hood down in the Wedge I have to turn the radio up so much to hear it that the distortion through the speakers renders it unintelligible (mind you much of Radio One already is ).

Anyway, with a s/s sewer from a V8, who needs a radio?

And it does seem 30mph faster - I have to keep checking the B2 to ensure I'm not in Brunstrom territory (as regards speed that is ... 1mph over )

Streaky

[jeffreyarcher]

Julian64 said:

<...>or do I refuse to fill it in?

Technically there is no time limit on a section 172 notice, the time limit is on the NIP itself, so don't ignore it. As Tony has said, write to them pointing out their error.

Julian64 said:

And which bit of what can I quote?

The Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, Section 1.
1.—(1) Subject to section 2 of this Act, where a person is prosecuted for an offence to which this section applies, he is not to be convicted unless—
(c) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—
(ii) in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.

[Julian64]

Cheers, however I WAS feeling all warm and sug until my wife pointed out that second class post can take up to a week to arrive!!!!!
I assume its from the date they post it.

[streaky]

Julian64 said:

Cheers, however I WAS feeling all warm and sug until my wife pointed out that second class post can take up to a week to arrive!!!!! I assume its from the date they post it.

No, compressing the relevant wording in the act, it says "within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was served on ... the registered keeper.

'Served on' means that you must have received it. Note also that the days are calendar, not working days.

If they send it second class and you don't receive it in time, that's their look out. Consigning a letter to the postal system can be a lottery anyway in terms of the timeliness of its delivery ... whatever the Post Office says!

If you do receive a NIP, use Registered Post or Recorded Delivery to return it.

Streaky

[toad_oftoadhall]

streaky said:

'Served on' means that you must have received it.

Nope, it means date it was *posted*. They have no onus to ensure it arrives.

[Julian64]

Shootout between Toad and Streaky Three paces back gentleman and then agree on who is loaded with blanks and who is firing with real bullets

[streaky]

toad_oftoadhall said:

streaky said: 'Served on' means that you must have received it. Nope, it means date it was *posted*. They have no onus to ensure it arrives.

No it doesn't. The service of a notice should be in person, and that is how it generally applies in all English (and Welsh) law. There is an exception however for a NIP in that, "A notice sent by post must be dispatched so that it would reach the driver within the 14 days within the ordinary course of the post. If this is the case then it will have been deemed to have been served even if it is delivered outside the 14 day period."

If they send it First Class then they could reasonably expect next day delivery on the UK mainland - although the Post Office does not guarantee this. If they send it second class then they should have no expectation of delivery within three days of posting.

Postwatch said in May 2003 that over one million letters per day were delayed. SW London had the worst record. Their website shows that the Post Office is delivering 98.5% 2nd class mail by the third day.

Streaky



>> Edited by streaky on Friday 14th November 22:13

[jeffreyarcher]

streaky said:

There is an exception however for a NIP in that, "A notice sent by post must be dispatched so that it would reach the driver within the 14 days within the ordinary course of the post. If this is the case then it will have been deemed to have been served even if it is delivered outside the 14 day period."

I don't know what bit of law you're quoting, but it's the wrong bit of law. You're getting like 318ti, apparently quoting things without stating the source.
See: www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=62571&f=10&h=0

Julian64 said:

Cheers, however I WAS feeling all warm and sug until my wife pointed out that second class post can take up to a week to arrive!!!!! I assume its from the date they post it.

From the above link, it can be seen that if they do send it second class, you should retain the envelope as evidence, for your defence, that the NIP was invalidly served.

[Chrisgr31]

jeffreyarcher said:

streaky said: There is an exception however for a NIP in that, "A notice sent by post must be dispatched so that it would reach the driver within the 14 days within the ordinary course of the post. If this is the case then it will have been deemed to have been served even if it is delivered outside the 14 day period." I don't know what bit of law you're quoting, but it's the wrong bit of law. You're getting like 318ti, apparently quoting things without stating the source. See: www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=62571&f=10&h=0 Julian64 said: Cheers, however I WAS feeling all warm and sug until my wife pointed out that second class post can take up to a week to arrive!!!!! I assume its from the date they post it. From the above link, it can be seen that if they do send it second class, you should retain the envelope as evidence, for your defence, that the NIP was invalidly served.

Must admit that if I received a NIP on day 15 that was posted on Day 14 I would contest it on the grounds that general law says someone that a document posted first class is counted as being served the next day.

Presumably one could also argue that a Notice sent by second class post was never served as it is not a prescribed means of service? Therefore there would in fact be no point in keeping the envelope other than toprove it was sent 2nd class. Although it might be better to ask the question as to whether it was sent 2nd class rather than admitting receiving it!

[jeffreyarcher]

Chrisgr31 said:

Must admit that if I received a NIP on day 15 that was posted on Day 14 I would contest it on the grounds that general law says someone that a document posted first class is counted as being served the next day.

Didn't you read the last post on the link I posted?

Chrisgr31 said:

Therefore there would in fact be no point in keeping the envelope other than toprove it was sent 2nd class.

Strewth! Why else do you think I said to keep the envelope?

Chrisgr31 said:

Although it might be better to ask the question as to whether it was sent 2nd class rather than admitting receiving it!

1) Rule #1; Scammers lie. South Wales (until recently, anyway), have been sending sworn witness statements to court that they were sent 1st class, when they were actually sent 2nd class.
2) Why would you not want to admit receiving it? Then you can't prove that it was sent 2nd class. All that is required for them is that they show that it was sent, not that you received it.

>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Saturday 15th November 12:06

[streaky]

jeffreyarcher said:

streaky said: There is an exception however for a NIP in that, "A notice sent by post must be dispatched so that it would reach the driver within the 14 days within the ordinary course of the post. If this is the case then it will have been deemed to have been served even if it is delivered outside the 14 day period." I don't know what bit of law you're quoting, but it's the wrong bit of law. You're getting like 318ti, apparently quoting things without stating the source. See: www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=62571&f=10&h=0 Julian64 said: Cheers, however I WAS feeling all warm and sug until my wife pointed out that second class post can take up to a week to arrive!!!!! I assume its from the date they post it. From the above link, it can be seen that if they do send it second class, you should retain the envelope as evidence, for your defence, that the NIP was invalidly served.

Butterworth's Police Law (ISBN 0406981469), quoted by various legal sources.

[jeffreyarcher]

streaky said:

Butterworth's Police Law (ISBN 0406981469), quoted by various legal sources.

Ta, does it cite an authority for such an interpretation?

[tvradict]

I don't see how they can say that if they sent it, you recieved it.

There are millions of letters go missing each year, how can they be SO sure that an NIP WILL NOT be one of these Millions???

IMO NIP's should be HAND Delivered by a Member of the Prosecuting Traffic Police/Scamera Partnership.

[Chrisgr31]

jeffreyarcher said:

1) Rule #1; Scammers lie. South Wales (until recently, anyway), have been sending sworn witness statements to court that they were sent 1st class, when they were actually sent 2nd class. 2) Why would you not want to admit receiving it? Then you can't prove that it was sent 2nd class. All that is required for them is that they show that it was sent, not that you received it.

I suppose it isn't a suprise that Scamera Partnerships lie as they seem to make up accident blackspots.

But lets assume they didn't lie. Surely it would be far better to ask them "Can you tell me how the NIP was served?" They hopefully reply "Second Class Post"

You then ask "Under Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, Schedule 9, Paragraph 6.-(3)is that a valid method of service?" They have to say "No" so presumably case dimissed.

If you have actually received the Notice within 14 days and admit to it presumably it could be said that its been served.

[madant69]

I can't imagine any force would send a NIP second class. Even Dorset use registered post and we're always strapped for cash.