Viper or Ultima
Discussion
I currently have a Supercharged Intercooled Dodge Viper GTS. The car puts out 775 rwhp and 765 rwtq. I have, however become somewhat "bored". I need something more wild. Ive been searching for a car to replace this toy, and wanted to inquire about the Ultima. Since this car will be tracked and street driven, I was wondering about the following:
1) How Streetable are these cars? How do they handle in rough roads, going up curbs? (I have a pretty high threshold since a race prepped viper is not exactly practical).
2) How hot does the cabin get inside? (GTR). How well does the AC work?
3) What is the approximate build cost in the US for an ultima if I farm out the work to someone else? Does anyone have any shops that they recommend to do this work?
4) Any recommendations, thoughts? Would you take the ultima leap? or keep the viper?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
1) How Streetable are these cars? How do they handle in rough roads, going up curbs? (I have a pretty high threshold since a race prepped viper is not exactly practical).
2) How hot does the cabin get inside? (GTR). How well does the AC work?
3) What is the approximate build cost in the US for an ultima if I farm out the work to someone else? Does anyone have any shops that they recommend to do this work?
4) Any recommendations, thoughts? Would you take the ultima leap? or keep the viper?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Here is another question. The vipers are infamous for getting extremely warm in the cockpits. The collector for the exhaust is located right at the footwells of the car. Even with the catalysts removed, the interior temps of the car can get pretty extreme during warm summer months (especially here in Texas). With the metal interior of the ultimas, how are cockpit temps with and without AC? Im trying to do my "due diligence" on this car before taking the plunge. What are some of your honest dislikes about the car?
Hi SmokinV10,
Your current spec Viper will be very tough to top I must admit. The bottleneck you will come up against with an Ultima is the transaxle(unless you go for a something like a $40k Hewland). However, I am also in Texas and have a friend in Utah who owns a twin-turbocharged 1000+hp ultima that he built. He designed the engine to limit torque to 600-650ft.lbs at the flywheel(which is about max on a Porsche G50), but with his adjustable boost he is getting in the neighborhood of 900 hp at the rear wheels. Its a very high spec, high cost engine, and the motor will handle 1300-1500hp. My guess is that your looking at $50-$65k for just the engine. There used to be some photos on the Ultima Owners Club Website of his car. I remember him telling me a story of taking the car to a Las Vegas track and pulling away 8-10 car lengths on the longest straight against race prepared vipers, porsches, and vettes. He was also going to take the car to the Arizona highway race where you can run as fast as you want. The car was setup to go 240mph. I can email you with more details if you like.
Cheers!
-Mack
Your current spec Viper will be very tough to top I must admit. The bottleneck you will come up against with an Ultima is the transaxle(unless you go for a something like a $40k Hewland). However, I am also in Texas and have a friend in Utah who owns a twin-turbocharged 1000+hp ultima that he built. He designed the engine to limit torque to 600-650ft.lbs at the flywheel(which is about max on a Porsche G50), but with his adjustable boost he is getting in the neighborhood of 900 hp at the rear wheels. Its a very high spec, high cost engine, and the motor will handle 1300-1500hp. My guess is that your looking at $50-$65k for just the engine. There used to be some photos on the Ultima Owners Club Website of his car. I remember him telling me a story of taking the car to a Las Vegas track and pulling away 8-10 car lengths on the longest straight against race prepared vipers, porsches, and vettes. He was also going to take the car to the Arizona highway race where you can run as fast as you want. The car was setup to go 240mph. I can email you with more details if you like.
Cheers!
-Mack
The torque limitation might be an issue. As we all know the rate at which a car can accelerate may be best determined by the "area under the curve"...basically the more torque you make and the broader the torque band, the faster your car is. I do realize that the Ultima is not a drag race car, however, I am doing my due diligence to determine what kind of sacrifices or dissapointments I may encounter by selling my current vehicle. "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"...holds true here. The car can be built to the correct specs at a SIGNIFICANT cost, but then is it worth it?
"that the Ultima is not a drag race car"
Thanks to it's low mass, traction, and choice of engine it's a better drag car than any production car.
Seems price isn't an issue here (and it shouldn't be if you can afford a viper with 900 horses). I'd think that for the price of that viper, you could turn an Ultima into officially the worlds fastest street registered car. BTW there are street cars doing 8s here
Thanks to it's low mass, traction, and choice of engine it's a better drag car than any production car.
Seems price isn't an issue here (and it shouldn't be if you can afford a viper with 900 horses). I'd think that for the price of that viper, you could turn an Ultima into officially the worlds fastest street registered car. BTW there are street cars doing 8s here
Sport Compact Car magazine held a contest recently between 10 cars the readers choose. Among them was a supercharged Viper and my V12 powered Ultima GTR. The cars were all dyno tested :
Viper 840 RWHP,2 Supras at 450 and 650 hp,2 Talons at 400 and 660 hp, MR2 490hp,Ultima GTR 408 RWHP,350Z 340HP,Skyline GTR 650 RWHP.
all aspects of performance were tested also comfort,and drivability.
Between the two cars concerned my GTR beat the Viper in all aspects of performance including 0-60 and 14 mile.
the Ultima was also deemed more comfortable with better
air con and a better ride quality by far.
Viper 840 RWHP,2 Supras at 450 and 650 hp,2 Talons at 400 and 660 hp, MR2 490hp,Ultima GTR 408 RWHP,350Z 340HP,Skyline GTR 650 RWHP.
all aspects of performance were tested also comfort,and drivability.
Between the two cars concerned my GTR beat the Viper in all aspects of performance including 0-60 and 14 mile.
the Ultima was also deemed more comfortable with better
air con and a better ride quality by far.
jay esterer said:If you needed a push Smokin', I think that this may be it!!!
Sport Compact Car magazine held a contest recently between 10 cars the readers choose. Among them was a supercharged Viper and my V12 powered Ultima GTR. The cars were all dyno tested :
Viper 840 RWHP,2 Supras at 450 and 650 hp,2 Talons at 400 and 660 hp, MR2 490hp,Ultima GTR 408 RWHP,350Z 340HP,Skyline GTR 650 RWHP.
all aspects of performance were tested also comfort,and drivability.
Between the two cars concerned my GTR beat the Viper in all aspects of performance including 0-60 and 14 mile.
the Ultima was also deemed more comfortable with better
air con and a better ride quality by far.
jay esterer said:
Sport Compact Car magazine held a contest recently between 10 cars the readers choose. Among them was a supercharged Viper and my V12 powered Ultima GTR. The cars were all dyno tested :
Viper 840 RWHP,2 Supras at 450 and 650 hp,2 Talons at 400 and 660 hp, MR2 490hp,Ultima GTR 408 RWHP,350Z 340HP,Skyline GTR 650 RWHP.
all aspects of performance were tested also comfort,and drivability.
Between the two cars concerned my GTR beat the Viper in all aspects of performance including 0-60 and 14 mile.
the Ultima was also deemed more comfortable with better
air con and a better ride quality by far.
The supercharged Viper is owned by a good friend of mine. His supercharger system is the same as mine however his engine is a bit more built. Although this test was a measure, I do know of many external "non-standard" issues that led to the viper being beat on a 1/4 mile, 0-60 etc. The immense torque and the slick surfaces led to a poor 1/4 on the viper. But whos to say what would happen in real world conditions.
Who built your ultima? What kind of V12 are you using? BMW?
Trust me, the Ultima will out perform the viper. The viper is simply a mass production sports car. The Ultima is basically a street legal race car. The Ultima starts with many advantages over the viper, including it's low weight, ease of modification, centre of gravity, traction etc you could go on and on.
Remember the Ultima can make as much power as the Viper, so with the many advantages it has, it can always be modded to outperform any viper on the planet, on the strip and track.
Jay uses a BMW V12. He's got clips of it at his website and it sounds awesome.
Remember the Ultima can make as much power as the Viper, so with the many advantages it has, it can always be modded to outperform any viper on the planet, on the strip and track.
Jay uses a BMW V12. He's got clips of it at his website and it sounds awesome.
SmokinV10 said:
......Although this test was a measure, I do know of many external "non-standard" issues that led to the viper being beat on a 1/4 mile, 0-60 etc. The immense torque and the slick surfaces led to a poor 1/4 on the viper. But whos to say what would happen in real world conditions.....
Sounds to me like you don't want to be convinced.
The Viper was beaten by an Ultima with only half the power and in 'real world conditions'.
Steve
I notice the back of the Ultima GTR and Can-AM has a opening large enough for a diffuser. Would it possible to setup a diffuser on the back and have the wind go throught the front nose and out the back of the diffuser, creating more downforce? In addition, adding side skirts and a much more larger rear wing to generate more downforce (similar to the one on the Sport or Spyder model)?
Steve_D said:
......Although this test was a measure, I do know of many external "non-standard" issues that led to the viper being beat on a 1/4 mile, 0-60 etc. The immense torque and the slick surfaces led to a poor 1/4 on the viper. But whos to say what would happen in real world conditions.....
Nah, I do want to be convinced..I even have a buyer for my current car. However, since the owner of the other car is a good friend of mine, and knowing that that car will turn a 9 second quarter and runs 200mph in the standing mile, I find it hard to believe that a 12 cyl bmw could outpower, out accelerate that car..840rwhp...thats pretty much 1000 hp. Weight for weight it would take a 630 hp Ultima to come close..and then once you factor in wind resistance at higher speeds you would still need closer to 700 to come close. Thats outdoes the limits of the G50 tranny. I havent decided for or against the ultima as of yet, im just saying that test (fromt he inside knowledge I have on the event) isnt a good test.
Sounds to me like you don't want to be convinced.
The Viper was beaten by an Ultima with only half the power and in 'real world conditions'.
Steve
One huge advantage that the Ultima has over the Viper is weight distribution. The engine is much nearer to the rear wheels, so when the Viper is spinning its 900BHP into smoke, the Ultima has dug its wide tyres into the road and lit out like a scalded cat.
Mind you, you come to an Ultima forum and ask which car is better. What sort of answer do you expect?
Mind you, you come to an Ultima forum and ask which car is better. What sort of answer do you expect?
bluesatin said:
It confuses me why people want to buy/build an Ultima with ¼ mile being a major objective. These cars were designed for and excel in exception handling and brake dynamics. If you want to go in a straight line very fast buy another car!
I'll add to that ..... If you want to go fast in a straight line for a very short period of time ..... buy a rocket sled. As said, an Ultima can turn in good 1/4 mile times but, it can also stop, turn around and repeat it back down the strip faster than almost anything else.
"Straights only get in the way of corners" I don't know who said it first but I wish I had!
Paul
James, I believe the word is 'traction'
It's not fair on the viper to compare the two. One is a mass produced sports car. The Ultima is as close as they come to being a street legal race car.
Smokin, I know you love your viper but I'm sure deep down you realize that a modded viper can not compete with a modded Ultima.
It's not fair on the viper to compare the two. One is a mass produced sports car. The Ultima is as close as they come to being a street legal race car.
Smokin, I know you love your viper but I'm sure deep down you realize that a modded viper can not compete with a modded Ultima.
Sitting purely on the fence here.......
If the Ultima is SO good and it appears to be from posts here that a modded Ultima vs modded Viper would be a no brainer, why are so few Ultimas used in competition? Vipers and Corvettes are pretty successful and Ultimas are........?
Are they really the closest thing to a road legal racecar? Radical, JP1, XTR2 spring to mind... James has said in the past how much work they actually need for track work. They may be the best compromise of a road/track car though.
And if Mr smokin' wants an Ultima for 1/4mile use and that's his goal, it's his choice. If I wanted a 1/4 mile car I'd get a used Prokart, bolt in a 1.5 turbo busa lump and go and have some fun
but each to their own
If the Ultima is SO good and it appears to be from posts here that a modded Ultima vs modded Viper would be a no brainer, why are so few Ultimas used in competition? Vipers and Corvettes are pretty successful and Ultimas are........?
Are they really the closest thing to a road legal racecar? Radical, JP1, XTR2 spring to mind... James has said in the past how much work they actually need for track work. They may be the best compromise of a road/track car though.
And if Mr smokin' wants an Ultima for 1/4mile use and that's his goal, it's his choice. If I wanted a 1/4 mile car I'd get a used Prokart, bolt in a 1.5 turbo busa lump and go and have some fun
but each to their own 
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