Could Someone Push Me Over The Edge Please
Discussion
Sat in Ted M's office five years ago, he suggested that he didn't think that I'd buy a car from him then (he was right - bought the racecar instead, which was the right choice at the time), but he did suggest that he fully expected to see me, cheque in hand in about five years time - that would be now then 
And you know what - he was probably right - I'm back thinking.
An Audi R8 has been vetoed as a daily driver as I now have to behave as a sensible family man. This clearly leaves the way open for a toy weekend type car. I've been through a few in my head - sensible choice would be a recent Elise for top down fun. Ginetta G50 is pretty much out of the reckoning as it is closed top - although I am tempted, and G20 doesn't really do wet weather gear and isn't fast enough.
So I'm back round to Ultima - however I'm just going round in circles at the moment on the cost/benefit/value equation.
For me, a £50k+ car really shouldn't have carbs - and LS7 appears to be weapon of choice these days - meaning £70k - which is pushing 911 territory, which comes with wind down windows and a snug fitting electric hard top, PSM etc etc etc.
I do get track focussed fun (A G20 race car will give many junior supercars a hard time on the track), and I absolutely get the build yourself satisfaction.
The question I suppose is, is it enough - is the experience of Ultima ownership really at least 50% more than waiting for the G50 soft top (not quite as brutal, but also not inadequate) etc?
As the title says if you guys can't convince me, then I'm pretty much a lost cause.
Rich
And you know what - he was probably right - I'm back thinking.
An Audi R8 has been vetoed as a daily driver as I now have to behave as a sensible family man. This clearly leaves the way open for a toy weekend type car. I've been through a few in my head - sensible choice would be a recent Elise for top down fun. Ginetta G50 is pretty much out of the reckoning as it is closed top - although I am tempted, and G20 doesn't really do wet weather gear and isn't fast enough.
So I'm back round to Ultima - however I'm just going round in circles at the moment on the cost/benefit/value equation.
For me, a £50k+ car really shouldn't have carbs - and LS7 appears to be weapon of choice these days - meaning £70k - which is pushing 911 territory, which comes with wind down windows and a snug fitting electric hard top, PSM etc etc etc.
I do get track focussed fun (A G20 race car will give many junior supercars a hard time on the track), and I absolutely get the build yourself satisfaction.
The question I suppose is, is it enough - is the experience of Ultima ownership really at least 50% more than waiting for the G50 soft top (not quite as brutal, but also not inadequate) etc?
As the title says if you guys can't convince me, then I'm pretty much a lost cause.
Rich
For most the logic goes:-
I HAVE to have one of those and it must have this level of performance.
Or
I HAVE to build one of those.
It's rare for both together.
Seems to me you don't have either.
With respect to the engine there are a few efi small blocks around and I'm working on the conversion of mine today. There are also other LS series engines which will fit the bill unless your power requirements are high.
Steve
I HAVE to have one of those and it must have this level of performance.
Or
I HAVE to build one of those.
It's rare for both together.
Seems to me you don't have either.
With respect to the engine there are a few efi small blocks around and I'm working on the conversion of mine today. There are also other LS series engines which will fit the bill unless your power requirements are high.
Steve
Hi Rich!
Well I'm all for giving you a push in the right direction.....understand your situation and feelings/logic pretty well - found myself in a similar if not identical situation about 18 months back....
So big fan of the Ultima for longer than I can remember though I can remember as an impoverished young upstart with a young family looking at the price list thinking jow the hell do people afford these things......ah memories
Any way fast forward the odd decade or two business is good, had more than my fair share of nice cars and bikes. Fell in love with the R8 - test drove it and thought it ain't enough so jumped the queue for the V10.....Perfect!
Then I went and bought CL55 AMG as a stop gap & this is where it all started to go wrong....or right depending on whether you're a glass half full or empty kinda guy!
Just loved the CL to bits - fantastic engine, seats 4 in comfort, great for European jaunts and relatively cheap as chips......so got me thnking did I really want to spend the far side of 100k on an Audi or similar for a level of performance that I could far exceed with my old fav the GTR.....Now around this time the LS7 came on the scene so you can guess that was a major decision point for me.
After a few restless nights sleep decided what the hell keep the CL for a bit & lets do the Ultima dream, enjoy the build and end up with the ultimate in performance......cost wise your about spot on for a decent LS7 with all the right bits.....but (and this is a big but) the Ultima is in my mind a much bigger commitment than just the monies....it'll take up your free time, keep you awake, make you new friends and hopefully take you on some truely memorable road trips.....oh and it'll also give you sore knuckles, cut fore head & a bad back
On a serious note I'm also not convinved that you wont do better from a depreciation point of view with a well built LS7 GTR over say 3-4 years say versus R8,997 etc....
Go on man do it...you know you want to
...just make it a GTR and make it Orange!!!
Simon
Well I'm all for giving you a push in the right direction.....understand your situation and feelings/logic pretty well - found myself in a similar if not identical situation about 18 months back....
So big fan of the Ultima for longer than I can remember though I can remember as an impoverished young upstart with a young family looking at the price list thinking jow the hell do people afford these things......ah memories
Any way fast forward the odd decade or two business is good, had more than my fair share of nice cars and bikes. Fell in love with the R8 - test drove it and thought it ain't enough so jumped the queue for the V10.....Perfect!
Then I went and bought CL55 AMG as a stop gap & this is where it all started to go wrong....or right depending on whether you're a glass half full or empty kinda guy!
Just loved the CL to bits - fantastic engine, seats 4 in comfort, great for European jaunts and relatively cheap as chips......so got me thnking did I really want to spend the far side of 100k on an Audi or similar for a level of performance that I could far exceed with my old fav the GTR.....Now around this time the LS7 came on the scene so you can guess that was a major decision point for me.
After a few restless nights sleep decided what the hell keep the CL for a bit & lets do the Ultima dream, enjoy the build and end up with the ultimate in performance......cost wise your about spot on for a decent LS7 with all the right bits.....but (and this is a big but) the Ultima is in my mind a much bigger commitment than just the monies....it'll take up your free time, keep you awake, make you new friends and hopefully take you on some truely memorable road trips.....oh and it'll also give you sore knuckles, cut fore head & a bad back
On a serious note I'm also not convinved that you wont do better from a depreciation point of view with a well built LS7 GTR over say 3-4 years say versus R8,997 etc....
Go on man do it...you know you want to
...just make it a GTR and make it Orange!!!Simon
Have a factory test run and go to visit as many owners/cars as you can.
This is quite a bit different to the average weekend toy.
Remember its a road legal track car, with track car refinements and attention to detail.....very different to a production Hyper/Sports car!
Make sure you compare apples to apples in your own mind!
As said recently by other PH'ers, some owner-builders might not fully appreciate this when signing-up.
Good luck.
This is quite a bit different to the average weekend toy.
Remember its a road legal track car, with track car refinements and attention to detail.....very different to a production Hyper/Sports car!
Make sure you compare apples to apples in your own mind!
As said recently by other PH'ers, some owner-builders might not fully appreciate this when signing-up.
Good luck.
I've just been for a run in my carb 550 bhp after having spent hours trying to get the mixture correct . Now that it's spot on there is nothing wrong with a carb !! The idle screws have to be set EXACTLY right to get a clean progression from 1000 rpm to 2000 rpm . Turning the screws even by 1/16 of a turn makes a difference . Fuel cosumption is worse than LS 7 but then I'm not doing many miles . How reliable is the LS 7 ? Is there more to go wrong ? Can you fix it yourself with a 1969 tool kit ?
Frank
Frank
The engine came with screws about 1.5 turns out [too rich] . I checked the plugs after idling and they were sooty so idled it and turned screws untill I had an even idle . This ended up with the screws 0.5 turns open and plugs greyish . After a run and idling at 1000 rpm the plugs were white so opened up the screws a bit ; went for a run etc etc . In the end the screws are about 7/8 of one turn out and if you go for a blast ,come back,and then idle for 10mins at 1000 rpm the plugs are brown . This is best colour but also the progression is almost seemless and all the kangaroos are gone . If I have the screws 1 full turn open the idle is FAR too rich ; the screws only need a whisker as you hit perfection .
Frank
Frank
Yes the LS7 is a lovely unit but you can make as much power with a LS2/3 for the same money as a SBC. The LS2 and LS3 are as smooth as silk and both will handle a nice Supercharger with pretty amazing results... Myself and another Ultima owner have just started to build an engine for someone based on a LS3 and it will hopefully make 800bhp at full chat.
Supercharging imo is the way to go. As much power as you could ever want with little or no effect on economy if you run off boost.... GM have moved to the LS9 which is supercharged and based loosely on the LS2/3.
The Ultima experience imo is unbeatable, there is no car on the road that draws more positive admiration. Where are you in the country because you are welcome to visit me and i will take you for a spin.
Supercharging imo is the way to go. As much power as you could ever want with little or no effect on economy if you run off boost.... GM have moved to the LS9 which is supercharged and based loosely on the LS2/3.
The Ultima experience imo is unbeatable, there is no car on the road that draws more positive admiration. Where are you in the country because you are welcome to visit me and i will take you for a spin.
this might help...........911 vs Ultima (I think the RUF is quite a nippy one?)
http://www.dragtimes.com/Porsche--Ruf-Drag-Racing....
http://www.dragtimes.com/Porsche--GT3-Drag-Racing....
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ultima--GTR-Drag-Racing.h...
http://www.dragtimes.com/Porsche--Ruf-Drag-Racing....
http://www.dragtimes.com/Porsche--GT3-Drag-Racing....
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ultima--GTR-Drag-Racing.h...
Guys,
Many thanks for the responses - appears like some get where I'm coming from and others don't - which is fine, we are all different.
Essentially, I'm looking for a weekend / track toy - which would benefit from being rawer than the mainstream offerings, but also needs to be able to be road usable, park and leavable and genuinely give that something special feeling which you don't get from a raw track / race car as they are only about going fast.
Therefore, as Steve says, I very much don't have to have one, or have to build one, but both are very appealing. I also realise that they are very different to a production car - but either an Ultima or, say, R8 would fill the gap in my garage, so whilst they are probably apples and pears, actually I do have to compare them in my mind.
1/4 mile times are not really of interest to me, as that isn't what I'm trying to achieve - I'm after something that puts a smile on my face on a regular basis for a significant period of time - that isn't measured by the stopwatch but something a lot less tangible (hence my dilemmas).
I want to have my heart in my mouth going down Craner Curves, still have a car at the end of the Old hairpin, but be able to cruise home (back way of course) in comfort and (almost) style. The Germans have a couple of options to tick these boxes - but I suppose the original question was could a small outfit from Leiceter do it better when the whole process (build - register - run - enjoy) is taken into account.
I guess the only way to find out is to do it myself - I'm 90% there I believe - on the basis that as I have to have a proper car at the same time, what is the point in getting something that could/should be used every day.
Many thanks for the responses - appears like some get where I'm coming from and others don't - which is fine, we are all different.
Essentially, I'm looking for a weekend / track toy - which would benefit from being rawer than the mainstream offerings, but also needs to be able to be road usable, park and leavable and genuinely give that something special feeling which you don't get from a raw track / race car as they are only about going fast.
Therefore, as Steve says, I very much don't have to have one, or have to build one, but both are very appealing. I also realise that they are very different to a production car - but either an Ultima or, say, R8 would fill the gap in my garage, so whilst they are probably apples and pears, actually I do have to compare them in my mind.
1/4 mile times are not really of interest to me, as that isn't what I'm trying to achieve - I'm after something that puts a smile on my face on a regular basis for a significant period of time - that isn't measured by the stopwatch but something a lot less tangible (hence my dilemmas).
I want to have my heart in my mouth going down Craner Curves, still have a car at the end of the Old hairpin, but be able to cruise home (back way of course) in comfort and (almost) style. The Germans have a couple of options to tick these boxes - but I suppose the original question was could a small outfit from Leiceter do it better when the whole process (build - register - run - enjoy) is taken into account.
I guess the only way to find out is to do it myself - I'm 90% there I believe - on the basis that as I have to have a proper car at the same time, what is the point in getting something that could/should be used every day.
thats an interesting answer. I think there is a real fundamental issue for you on this subject. As an example, I drive a merc clk cab on a daily basis..... nice car but its a production car. ALL production cars are differant to an Ultima or any similar kit/track/toy cars. One thing the factory find with prospective owners is the massive differance between a production car (like the R8) and an ultima (type) car, one will always start, never go wrong, you never need to tweek it, never need to fix, upgrade, fiddle with it, the other one you will need to every time you get in it. Can you guess which one is which?
As a guy I know who has a few car said once: The differance between a new 911 and an old ferrari is, when you leave the 911 you dont still have a bit of the car left in your hands. But people still love old cars for that reason.
Are you happy to have a car that need lots of fiddling with? Wont always start, will have funny noises, do strange things, have electrical issues etc? For me (and many) thats the joy of the Ultima/kit/toy cars. For many its just too much like hard work and will be frustrating.
And yes, its the fastest, and gets the most attention in car parks etc etc, more than any new production car.
Just a few thoughts.
As a guy I know who has a few car said once: The differance between a new 911 and an old ferrari is, when you leave the 911 you dont still have a bit of the car left in your hands. But people still love old cars for that reason.
Are you happy to have a car that need lots of fiddling with? Wont always start, will have funny noises, do strange things, have electrical issues etc? For me (and many) thats the joy of the Ultima/kit/toy cars. For many its just too much like hard work and will be frustrating.
And yes, its the fastest, and gets the most attention in car parks etc etc, more than any new production car.
Just a few thoughts.
my 2 cents:
I own and drive a 993turbo (430hp) and a R8 (stock) and they do not even come close to the 450hp GTR that I had a ride in.
I decided to build a canam with a 550hp LS7. The Ultima cars are for sure toys and I would never use it as a daily driver,
but for the sunny days going around country roads I cannot think of any better.
I have not been in any faster more thrilling cars so far and I suspect it would have to be a pure track car that can give
you any more thrill than the road legal ultima.
I own and drive a 993turbo (430hp) and a R8 (stock) and they do not even come close to the 450hp GTR that I had a ride in.
I decided to build a canam with a 550hp LS7. The Ultima cars are for sure toys and I would never use it as a daily driver,
but for the sunny days going around country roads I cannot think of any better.
I have not been in any faster more thrilling cars so far and I suspect it would have to be a pure track car that can give
you any more thrill than the road legal ultima.
I'm sure the unique 'smile factor' has been and will continue to be a regular basis of many Ultima builds or ownerships.
The guys are merely stating it wont be smiles all through the experience, in fact there may well be several days of 'tears and many beers'.
With your professional experience/resources Rich, you should not have a serious problem at all, apart from your toy will likely be on the drawing board for at least 12 months....and maybe the rest of its life!
Fortunately though, here exists a wealth of supporting knowledge and experience which can help during those difficult stages/lows.
If you do decide to go Ultima, dont be in a hurry to 'final spec' your car... I would think working in design gives you a great advantage in this area.
IMHO.... unless you are really into engines, go the LS route...standard spec initially, then have a blower installed as and when its needed. I personally think for the majority of Ultima owners, its a better, more modern all-rounder in this configuration.
Good luck.
The guys are merely stating it wont be smiles all through the experience, in fact there may well be several days of 'tears and many beers'.
With your professional experience/resources Rich, you should not have a serious problem at all, apart from your toy will likely be on the drawing board for at least 12 months....and maybe the rest of its life!
Fortunately though, here exists a wealth of supporting knowledge and experience which can help during those difficult stages/lows.
If you do decide to go Ultima, dont be in a hurry to 'final spec' your car... I would think working in design gives you a great advantage in this area.
IMHO.... unless you are really into engines, go the LS route...standard spec initially, then have a blower installed as and when its needed. I personally think for the majority of Ultima owners, its a better, more modern all-rounder in this configuration.
Good luck.
Here's some insight that I hope will help........
I have had many cars over the years, and I currently have 5 cars which all seem to provide a specific purpose..
My Ferrari Challenge Stradale is a street car made to race, and is an amazing car to drive. However, I don't do any track work with the car since it's pretty expensive to repair and is not easily replaced if something were to happen to it. So, it gets driven mainly to dinner and to local events.
My Lotus Elise is the 2nd one I have owned. I love the way the car is so nimble and the fun-factor in driving the car is off the charts. Plus, its reliability in all aspects is really impressive. For an all around weekend car that you can drive anywhere, including driving to the track and doing an entire day of track sessions followed by driving it home, going for dinner, going for a Sunday drive with the top off, etc... It is WAY more fun and much more exotic than a Porsche (I have owned Porsches in the past - great all around cars, but lacking the chemistry to make it stand out in your mind after a few months with it).
My Ultima Can Am is a whole different level. The Ultima is really a track car that you can drive on the street, not a street car you can go to the track with. It is NOT something that you will be anxious to take your lady out for dinner in. And, it requires a LOT more attention to quirks than a Lotus or Porsche. But, if you want something that you can drive to any car show and be fairly exclusive that you will likely have the only one, or something that is a toy that you can take out for even just a 15 minute ride that will melt away anything else, or something for the track that is in a word 'amazing', this is a great choice.
So, it really depends upon what you're intentions with a weekend car are. If you're going to spend 50%+ of the time on the track, or you're looking for a toy to get your heart pumping, or performance that is unequal anywhere for the money, and you're willing to tinker with the little things that go wrong an Ultima is a great choice. If, instead, you're going to spend 50%+ of the time going for dinners or more mundane tasks, the Ultima will still serve that purpose but IMO a Lotus or Porsche will do that job better.
Go for a drive in each of the cars you're considering. That will help too.
I have had many cars over the years, and I currently have 5 cars which all seem to provide a specific purpose..
My Ferrari Challenge Stradale is a street car made to race, and is an amazing car to drive. However, I don't do any track work with the car since it's pretty expensive to repair and is not easily replaced if something were to happen to it. So, it gets driven mainly to dinner and to local events.
My Lotus Elise is the 2nd one I have owned. I love the way the car is so nimble and the fun-factor in driving the car is off the charts. Plus, its reliability in all aspects is really impressive. For an all around weekend car that you can drive anywhere, including driving to the track and doing an entire day of track sessions followed by driving it home, going for dinner, going for a Sunday drive with the top off, etc... It is WAY more fun and much more exotic than a Porsche (I have owned Porsches in the past - great all around cars, but lacking the chemistry to make it stand out in your mind after a few months with it).
My Ultima Can Am is a whole different level. The Ultima is really a track car that you can drive on the street, not a street car you can go to the track with. It is NOT something that you will be anxious to take your lady out for dinner in. And, it requires a LOT more attention to quirks than a Lotus or Porsche. But, if you want something that you can drive to any car show and be fairly exclusive that you will likely have the only one, or something that is a toy that you can take out for even just a 15 minute ride that will melt away anything else, or something for the track that is in a word 'amazing', this is a great choice.
So, it really depends upon what you're intentions with a weekend car are. If you're going to spend 50%+ of the time on the track, or you're looking for a toy to get your heart pumping, or performance that is unequal anywhere for the money, and you're willing to tinker with the little things that go wrong an Ultima is a great choice. If, instead, you're going to spend 50%+ of the time going for dinners or more mundane tasks, the Ultima will still serve that purpose but IMO a Lotus or Porsche will do that job better.
Go for a drive in each of the cars you're considering. That will help too.
LuckyP said:
ILuv4REs said:
...He does a lot of dinners...
Does FB mean the same in the States as it does here??? 
I was giving my opinions on the cars to hopefully help the original post starter in this thread.
Edited by ILuv4REs on Wednesday 15th April 18:49
ILuv4REs said:
LuckyP said:
ILuv4REs said:
...He does a lot of dinners...
Does FB mean the same in the States as it does here??? I was giving my opinions on the cars to hopefully help the original post starter in this thread.
Now let me see:
1) Ferrari "....it gets driven mainly to dinner...."
2) Lotus Elise "...going for dinner..."
3) Ultima Can Am "...It is NOT something that you will be anxious to take your lady out for dinner in..." - Phew!
4) General "If, instead, you're going to spend 50%+ of the time going for dinners.....IMO a Lotus or Porsche will do that job better."
Ok I was wrong - the Ultima doesn't do dinner
Oh and FB? Err...that's you name on your profile init?
It has a...errr...meaning over here which has something to do with eating lots of dinners...or pies.
Work it out dude.
And as Cupid Stunt would say:
my reply was meant '...in the best possible taste"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Kc4_mAkgQ
Laters
Lucky
Edited by LuckyP on Wednesday 15th April 20:40
Gassing Station | Ultima | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff