Commissioning Photography : Your Experiences?
Discussion
Sorry if this sounds at all like an advert but i'm looking at making some changes to my business and i think your opinion would be really usefull...
I'm interested to hear what peoples experiences are of commissioning proffesional photography.
-What you liked/found usefull?
-what you didn't like/ was just a waste of time?
-Anything you wanted that wasn't available?
Thanks in advance people.
Rick.
I'm interested to hear what peoples experiences are of commissioning proffesional photography.
-What you liked/found usefull?
-what you didn't like/ was just a waste of time?
-Anything you wanted that wasn't available?
Thanks in advance people.
Rick.
I have recently commisioned photography for The Wean Machine - www.theweanmachine.com for use on our new website, which is under construction, new promotional materials and point of sale materials. I used a local photographer who is very creative but wanted to break out of weddings into commercial photography, the results are excellent - we have another photo session booked soon for more "lifestyle" shots. My PR agency thought I was mad and should have used an established photographer, but the costs were much higher.
In my dayjob I have been caught out when one of my team used a stock photo and didn't secure the correct rights - I had to pay that photographer £20,000 as a setllement.
Also in my dayjob I commisioned an agency to create two clever Christmas cards in 2007 - a single photo and another graphic design plus the post production and printing costs ran to £18,000. They were very good though.
My summary - if you are coming from a blue chip company using blue chip agencies then you will pay top dollar, as a small start-up you can bargain and find creative people will be a lot more supportive and flexible.
Phil.
In my dayjob I have been caught out when one of my team used a stock photo and didn't secure the correct rights - I had to pay that photographer £20,000 as a setllement.
Also in my dayjob I commisioned an agency to create two clever Christmas cards in 2007 - a single photo and another graphic design plus the post production and printing costs ran to £18,000. They were very good though.
My summary - if you are coming from a blue chip company using blue chip agencies then you will pay top dollar, as a small start-up you can bargain and find creative people will be a lot more supportive and flexible.
Phil.
Windsorphil said:
My PR agency thought I was mad and should have used an established photographer, but the costs were much higher.
I lost out on work like that as well - the PR agency wanted to put their established tog in the frame and of course the client bought their story (and subsequently paid much more than they needed to). Hopefully not so many people these days are taken in by sales talk but use their own wits and judgement.
Hi Scho - I think you're wanted back on the photo forum!It sounds like your Clients vary, from fully savvy commissioning editors/creatives to the inexperienced (e.g. small businesses looking for a product shot for their website). At one extreme, you might have the old advertising giants who will get the shot at any price, at the other a poor junior exec who will be shocked at the cost of one studio 10x8".
Even whilst working for the former, one problem I had was getting straight answers from photographers (even allowing for the fact that you are creatives, and therefore don't live in the real world!) So I would suggest you develop a simple way of presenting the plan and cost structure to Clients at the lower end.
At its most numpty level, I'm thinking of a very simple walk-through of the creative process:
The tricky bit is how to do it. The approach needs to be flexible. What's appropriate for the MD's secretary would appear condescending to the experienced account handler. So a printed brochure wouldn't work. But perhaps a couple of inkjetted loose leaf documents (photo paper, with some portfolio shots), so you can pull out the appropriate one as you suss the level of the Client? Perhaps an idiot page on the website ("New to commercial photography?") that pro's will skip but novices might find a godsend?
It also applies to the way you talk. Pro's want the confidence that you'll just do the job the way they want it, which is why they stick with the same people. Novices will gain confidence as you hold their hand.
Oh, and a useful closeout:When paid up, send the Client a coyright release form for their records:
- Definition of agreed usage
- Your contact details for requesting further use
- Names & details for other royalty/copyright interests (e.g. model name, agency)
- Cost/payment, including the models if payment went through you.
Even whilst working for the former, one problem I had was getting straight answers from photographers (even allowing for the fact that you are creatives, and therefore don't live in the real world!) So I would suggest you develop a simple way of presenting the plan and cost structure to Clients at the lower end.
At its most numpty level, I'm thinking of a very simple walk-through of the creative process:
- Concept: Designer sketches out the shot
- Model selection
- Location, props sourcing, preparation & dressing, permissions, etc.
- The shoot itself
- Allowance for retouching.
- Use and copyright
- Project management & cost control (the latter a big issue with some smudgers - there's nothing wrong with saying it's a £2k shoot, but better have another £2k reserved for contingencies, bad weather, etc.)
The tricky bit is how to do it. The approach needs to be flexible. What's appropriate for the MD's secretary would appear condescending to the experienced account handler. So a printed brochure wouldn't work. But perhaps a couple of inkjetted loose leaf documents (photo paper, with some portfolio shots), so you can pull out the appropriate one as you suss the level of the Client? Perhaps an idiot page on the website ("New to commercial photography?") that pro's will skip but novices might find a godsend?
It also applies to the way you talk. Pro's want the confidence that you'll just do the job the way they want it, which is why they stick with the same people. Novices will gain confidence as you hold their hand.
Oh, and a useful closeout:When paid up, send the Client a coyright release form for their records:
- Definition of agreed usage
- Your contact details for requesting further use
- Names & details for other royalty/copyright interests (e.g. model name, agency)
- Cost/payment, including the models if payment went through you.
oh hai simpo
Thanks for everyone's input so far, love Pistonheads
I know how hard it can be getting prices and meaningful info from a photographer from my doing my own market research! I can imagine it's a real PITA for businesses that aren't using an agency to manage their project and perhaps don't have experience of dealing with the creative industry. As Simpo says (and phil has done) in this financial climate clients are perhaps more willing to find their own photographer to keep costs down. here's where i'm thinking i can help:
-The HiRich idiots guide... I'm very keen on being as clear as possible about the service on offer and what's involved. this would be a great way to spell it all out.
-At the moment I'm toying with the idea of using a starting price list thats freely available on my site and promo material. I'm fortunate enough to be in a position that allows me to be VERY competitive on price and still profitable so i'm not worried about being undercut by similar outfits. I'm hoping this might help to draw in people using other more expensive togs and also give an inexperienced client clear information on cost from the word go.
-being REALLY clear and reasonable with regards to usage rights. product photography including an all uses licence, firm and reasonable rates for everything else.
Any other suggestions?
PS...Phil, can i ask how you found your photographer?
Thanks for everyone's input so far, love Pistonheads
I know how hard it can be getting prices and meaningful info from a photographer from my doing my own market research! I can imagine it's a real PITA for businesses that aren't using an agency to manage their project and perhaps don't have experience of dealing with the creative industry. As Simpo says (and phil has done) in this financial climate clients are perhaps more willing to find their own photographer to keep costs down. here's where i'm thinking i can help:
-The HiRich idiots guide... I'm very keen on being as clear as possible about the service on offer and what's involved. this would be a great way to spell it all out.
-At the moment I'm toying with the idea of using a starting price list thats freely available on my site and promo material. I'm fortunate enough to be in a position that allows me to be VERY competitive on price and still profitable so i'm not worried about being undercut by similar outfits. I'm hoping this might help to draw in people using other more expensive togs and also give an inexperienced client clear information on cost from the word go.
-being REALLY clear and reasonable with regards to usage rights. product photography including an all uses licence, firm and reasonable rates for everything else.
Any other suggestions?
PS...Phil, can i ask how you found your photographer?
Edited by Scho on Tuesday 21st April 17:19
Scho said:
I'm fortunate enough to be in a position that allows me to be VERY competitive on price and still profitable so i'm not worried about being undercut by similar outfits.
I know very little about the commercial photography market but I can tell you how this sort of thing works in motorsport photography. There is always someone who is prepared to be cheap or to give their work away for free. This makes it very difficult for anyone else to sell work, as a client why would you pay for something that someone else can provide at a reasonable standard for nowt.
The net result is that there is no money in the market at all. Whilst people are giving away or charging very little for their work they get commissions but once they want to start charging a reasonable rate their customers go to the next new starter and get work for peanuts.
I found him in a high street near to Mrs W's office. Mrs Windsorphil and I needed some passport size photos for our Chinese Visa's, and he does it in his little studio...got talking to him and he said he was keen on doing commercial work, but found it hard to come by as he was always doing weddings.
We gave him a wean machine and some food to play with for a few days (we had nothing to lose), and what he came back with was pretty good - so we gave him a tighter brief and ended up with some really good shots.
We gave him a wean machine and some food to play with for a few days (we had nothing to lose), and what he came back with was pretty good - so we gave him a tighter brief and ended up with some really good shots.
Hi Scho, though I'm a semi-creative (product design) and amateur tog I've been involved in commissioning a few pieces of photography for work.
Didn't go wonderfully smoothly, I think the photographer was given too much free reign and came back with shots that were too 80's. (automotive component product shots). I found that taking on more of a artistic director role helped a lot to get the kind of shots that were needed. I guess a lot of your clients won't have someone that can do that for them. Therefore 'd suggest you're gunna need a couple of bits of paperwork (sorry!) that takes away any ambiguities.
- Form for clients to fill in what they want (could even be a web form). Something like:
Purposes of image/target publication/required format (digital, cd, negs etc)/ layout requirements (ie whitespace for text, will the final image be blended to white or black etc)/ any legacy photography to match in style / what type of style (simply lit/highkey/low key etc)/any depth of field preferences/ List of images to be shot (ie list of products etc).
-Then give them a written quote based on a crib of the above inc. breakdown of costs, est. completion date, payment terms, format, copyright handover, limitations of use, anything you WON'T be doing (ie cleaning products/deburring etc), terms of return of client property (so you're not left with a load of stuff not knowing if you can bin it) etc.
There's probably a few things I've missed.
Might sound a lot of work, but once you've written a template document it should only take a couple of tweaks for each job. Just takes away all the guess work, client knows what they are getting, and you have some security in that you're know exactly(?) what they need. You'll still have issues getting into the clients mind of what they want, but hopefully you can get a bit more info. And an example protfolio of shots on hand should help to further define clinet needs (like the magazines full of haircuts in the womens hairdressers!)
Didn't go wonderfully smoothly, I think the photographer was given too much free reign and came back with shots that were too 80's. (automotive component product shots). I found that taking on more of a artistic director role helped a lot to get the kind of shots that were needed. I guess a lot of your clients won't have someone that can do that for them. Therefore 'd suggest you're gunna need a couple of bits of paperwork (sorry!) that takes away any ambiguities.
- Form for clients to fill in what they want (could even be a web form). Something like:
Purposes of image/target publication/required format (digital, cd, negs etc)/ layout requirements (ie whitespace for text, will the final image be blended to white or black etc)/ any legacy photography to match in style / what type of style (simply lit/highkey/low key etc)/any depth of field preferences/ List of images to be shot (ie list of products etc).
-Then give them a written quote based on a crib of the above inc. breakdown of costs, est. completion date, payment terms, format, copyright handover, limitations of use, anything you WON'T be doing (ie cleaning products/deburring etc), terms of return of client property (so you're not left with a load of stuff not knowing if you can bin it) etc.
There's probably a few things I've missed.
Might sound a lot of work, but once you've written a template document it should only take a couple of tweaks for each job. Just takes away all the guess work, client knows what they are getting, and you have some security in that you're know exactly(?) what they need. You'll still have issues getting into the clients mind of what they want, but hopefully you can get a bit more info. And an example protfolio of shots on hand should help to further define clinet needs (like the magazines full of haircuts in the womens hairdressers!)
Piglet said:
Scho said:
I'm fortunate enough to be in a position that allows me to be VERY competitive on price and still profitable so i'm not worried about being undercut by similar outfits.
people are giving away or charging very little for their work they get commissions but once they want to start charging a reasonable rate their customers go to the next new starter and get work for peanuts. I'm not giving my work away, my overheads are low i can be cheaper and still make a heathy profit.
I can imagine motorsport would suffer as it'd be quite easy for an amatuer to get everything they needed to compete with the pro's. Camera, a few lenses and go to races on weekends.
VxDuncan said:
Hi Scho, though I'm a semi-creative (product design) and amateur tog I've been involved in commissioning a few pieces of photography for work.
Didn't go wonderfully smoothly, I think the photographer was given too much free reign and came back with shots that were too 80's. (automotive component product shots). I found that taking on more of a artistic director role helped a lot to get the kind of shots that were needed. I guess a lot of your clients won't have someone that can do that for them. Therefore 'd suggest you're gunna need a couple of bits of paperwork (sorry!) that takes away any ambiguities.
- Form for clients to fill in what they want (could even be a web form). Something like:
Purposes of image/target publication/required format (digital, cd, negs etc)/ layout requirements (ie whitespace for text, will the final image be blended to white or black etc)/ any legacy photography to match in style / what type of style (simply lit/highkey/low key etc)/any depth of field preferences/ List of images to be shot (ie list of products etc).
-Then give them a written quote based on a crib of the above inc. breakdown of costs, est. completion date, payment terms, format, copyright handover, limitations of use, anything you WON'T be doing (ie cleaning products/deburring etc), terms of return of client property (so you're not left with a load of stuff not knowing if you can bin it) etc.
There's probably a few things I've missed.
Might sound a lot of work, but once you've written a template document it should only take a couple of tweaks for each job. Just takes away all the guess work, client knows what they are getting, and you have some security in that you're know exactly(?) what they need. You'll still have issues getting into the clients mind of what they want, but hopefully you can get a bit more info. And an example protfolio of shots on hand should help to further define clinet needs (like the magazines full of haircuts in the womens hairdressers!)
Hi Duncan,Didn't go wonderfully smoothly, I think the photographer was given too much free reign and came back with shots that were too 80's. (automotive component product shots). I found that taking on more of a artistic director role helped a lot to get the kind of shots that were needed. I guess a lot of your clients won't have someone that can do that for them. Therefore 'd suggest you're gunna need a couple of bits of paperwork (sorry!) that takes away any ambiguities.
- Form for clients to fill in what they want (could even be a web form). Something like:
Purposes of image/target publication/required format (digital, cd, negs etc)/ layout requirements (ie whitespace for text, will the final image be blended to white or black etc)/ any legacy photography to match in style / what type of style (simply lit/highkey/low key etc)/any depth of field preferences/ List of images to be shot (ie list of products etc).
-Then give them a written quote based on a crib of the above inc. breakdown of costs, est. completion date, payment terms, format, copyright handover, limitations of use, anything you WON'T be doing (ie cleaning products/deburring etc), terms of return of client property (so you're not left with a load of stuff not knowing if you can bin it) etc.
There's probably a few things I've missed.
Might sound a lot of work, but once you've written a template document it should only take a couple of tweaks for each job. Just takes away all the guess work, client knows what they are getting, and you have some security in that you're know exactly(?) what they need. You'll still have issues getting into the clients mind of what they want, but hopefully you can get a bit more info. And an example protfolio of shots on hand should help to further define clinet needs (like the magazines full of haircuts in the womens hairdressers!)
You're components were lit with coloured lights wern't they?
The forms are an interesting idea, would be useful in helping someone who's not given a clear brief build a good idea of what they actually want!
Again might help to simplify things a little.
The portfolio idea: i often pull examples of existing photography off the web to help illustrate when i'm talking photospeak. might be a good idea to start saving interesting stuff for such a purpose.
thanks for your input
Scho said:
-At the moment I'm toying with the idea of using a starting price list thats freely available on my site and promo material. I'm fortunate enough to be in a position that allows me to be VERY competitive on price and still profitable so i'm not worried about being undercut by similar outfits. I'm hoping this might help to draw in people using other more expensive togs and also give an inexperienced client clear information on cost from the word go.
Much as that sounds good, and I always suggest guide prices, you need to be really careful in your business, as it will always lead to disappointment.A studio product shot of a wheel might be £400, including basic web & sales brochure use. Once you add polishing, sourcing and dressing a tyre, its £700. Retouching takes it to a grand, unlimited use global sends it through the roof. Even supposed pros forget to mention details, and you're the one left looking stupid when you add a nought to the original budget. Video and snaps are two of the most flexible areas in the creative production process (and you're the worst cost managers in the industry), so a cost-concious Client needs careful handling.
I would be wary about publishing anything. You must couch it in terms of "every job is different". You might do well to have a crib sheet, so you can appear to pull figures from the air. Alternatively a crib sheet of day/unit rates, so you can tap out on a calculator and pull up a figure.
However you might do it, I would suggest you make use of target vs budget to create a range of expectation: "Look, it sounds like about £500, but for budget I would suggest you allow £1k"
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