no oil to pass side cams. help me please
Discussion
Ive been running the car to set it up on the laptop etc and i noticed the other day as it was idling (and had ben for for 10/15mins) it just stopped instantly. i tried to restart it but it sounded like a hot starter problem. after 30mins cool down it started back up again and ran for a bit but i had finished messing so turned it off.
now today i started it and had it running for 10mins when it cut out instatntly. i went to start it again and it seemed like the hot starter problem again, left it for a while to cool but would not turn over. i tried to turn it over by hand and it wouldnt budge as if it was jammed.
ive stripped the top half down and removed the rockers to find the driver side had plenty of oil in the recesses but the passenger side was dry. I had swarf from the cam carriers, I removed one carrier at a time and they are truely scored. so the bank has been runing dry while ive been running it.
when i installed the engine/head/cams etc i had lubricated the carriers and poured oil over the lobes/buckets etc.
i put the o rings in the high pressure oil feed on the head gasket to the front on both banks. when it was running im sure the oil pressure gauge was reading ok, i was checking so many things i cant be 100% sure if it was reading correct or not.
the reason it cut out was the metal must have expaneded on cam and carrier and clamped down on the cam and stopped the engine in its tracks.
does the oil to the cams come through the nozzles in between the buckets? or is that an over flow?
Can anyone suggest why one bank is not getting oil?
how does the oil flow? i have one hose from the oil pump on drivers side, 2 hoses on the passenger side, one from oil filter housing to front of engine bay and one from the lower part of the sump to the front of engine bay behind the rad.
really frustrated at the moment and I'm dreading im going to have to pull the engine out and take the heaqds back off. if i crank the engine over would that produce enough spin to pump the oil to the heads so i can check it?
any advice is appreciated at the moment im so gutted, its going to prolong the time until I get it back on the road and I was set to take it to the paint shop thursday.
now today i started it and had it running for 10mins when it cut out instatntly. i went to start it again and it seemed like the hot starter problem again, left it for a while to cool but would not turn over. i tried to turn it over by hand and it wouldnt budge as if it was jammed.
ive stripped the top half down and removed the rockers to find the driver side had plenty of oil in the recesses but the passenger side was dry. I had swarf from the cam carriers, I removed one carrier at a time and they are truely scored. so the bank has been runing dry while ive been running it.
when i installed the engine/head/cams etc i had lubricated the carriers and poured oil over the lobes/buckets etc.
i put the o rings in the high pressure oil feed on the head gasket to the front on both banks. when it was running im sure the oil pressure gauge was reading ok, i was checking so many things i cant be 100% sure if it was reading correct or not.
the reason it cut out was the metal must have expaneded on cam and carrier and clamped down on the cam and stopped the engine in its tracks.
does the oil to the cams come through the nozzles in between the buckets? or is that an over flow?
Can anyone suggest why one bank is not getting oil?
how does the oil flow? i have one hose from the oil pump on drivers side, 2 hoses on the passenger side, one from oil filter housing to front of engine bay and one from the lower part of the sump to the front of engine bay behind the rad.
really frustrated at the moment and I'm dreading im going to have to pull the engine out and take the heaqds back off. if i crank the engine over would that produce enough spin to pump the oil to the heads so i can check it?
any advice is appreciated at the moment im so gutted, its going to prolong the time until I get it back on the road and I was set to take it to the paint shop thursday.
Edited by plumAJP on Monday 4th May 19:23
I'm afraid I know nothing about the AJP engine - but I've seen a similar thing a while ago on a V6 granada where the oil is fed through a hole in the cam shell bearing then along inside the cam to the rest of the bearings (I think, it was a long time ago).
The cam bearing where the oil fed into the cam had spun in its housing - cutting off the oil supply to that side as the hole no longer lined up with the oilway.
You can see where I'm going I hope with the theory anyway.
The cam bearing where the oil fed into the cam had spun in its housing - cutting off the oil supply to that side as the hole no longer lined up with the oilway.
You can see where I'm going I hope with the theory anyway.
the first cam carrier has a ridge and that section of the cam has a hole for oil to flow out and a ridge. the rest of the carriers are smooth no ridge but holes in the cam for each section where carrier bolts it down for oil to lubricate it.
would the nozzles be for oil overflow though
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would the nozzles be for oil overflow though
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Shayne...gutted to hear about that. From the sound of it, there is little you could have done to recognise you had a problem before the cam seized up - sounds like a fair bit of damage though with the cam and followers all scored. Hopefully the bottom end hasn't suffered the same fate.........
It's a bit puzzling why the oil isn't getting to only the one bank. All I can offer is a relatively easy way of checking oil flow to the heads without having to run the engine - see pic:
When I change my oil, I use a drill powered pump (£10 from machinemart) to pressurize the system before firing the car up. You need to get some 19mm hose (I think that's what size it is) to attach to the pump and to the union on the block (the higher of the two - this is the pressure feed to the block). Use another bit of hose to dip into the oil container. Turn the drill progressively to build pressure - it can generate quite a lot, enough to blow the hose off anyway (oh yes, so use jubilee clips on the pressure side!). I usually get the missus to sit in the car and tell me when the gauge is reading pressure before I stop - if you have the cam covers off at this stage you should see oil coming through the feed holes. That's what I would do to check the oil flow to the heads. If oil is only going to one then you're going to have to strip the block to diagnose I think
Note: the pic shows the pump attached to the lower union - the TVR manual recommends this as well to ensure the pump is primed but I don't bother with this stage anymore - just attach it to the upper one.
Good luck!
It's a bit puzzling why the oil isn't getting to only the one bank. All I can offer is a relatively easy way of checking oil flow to the heads without having to run the engine - see pic:
When I change my oil, I use a drill powered pump (£10 from machinemart) to pressurize the system before firing the car up. You need to get some 19mm hose (I think that's what size it is) to attach to the pump and to the union on the block (the higher of the two - this is the pressure feed to the block). Use another bit of hose to dip into the oil container. Turn the drill progressively to build pressure - it can generate quite a lot, enough to blow the hose off anyway (oh yes, so use jubilee clips on the pressure side!). I usually get the missus to sit in the car and tell me when the gauge is reading pressure before I stop - if you have the cam covers off at this stage you should see oil coming through the feed holes. That's what I would do to check the oil flow to the heads. If oil is only going to one then you're going to have to strip the block to diagnose I think
Note: the pic shows the pump attached to the lower union - the TVR manual recommends this as well to ensure the pump is primed but I don't bother with this stage anymore - just attach it to the upper one.
Good luck!
Edited by longbow on Monday 4th May 20:21
if i attach it to the upper oil union with the rockers off, will the pressure build up cause oil to piss out of the oil feeds and all over the place?
does oil come out of the nozzle in between the buckets wins? or through the holes in the cam under the carriers
does oil come out of the nozzle in between the buckets wins? or through the holes in the cam under the carriers
Edited by plumAJP on Monday 4th May 20:26
At an educated guess then yes, oil will come out of the small feed holes in between the valve buckets - this is the feed to lubricate the buckets themselves. Oil will also be fed into the cam bearings through the small feed hole at the bottom of the solid cam bearings. Don't worry, I very much doubt the pressure from the drill will be enough to squirt oil everywhere, but you should see it puddling out from the various holes. The oil return from the heads to the sump is the large rectangular recesses at the back of the heads - with the cam covers in place and sealed up, the oil level builds up in the heads until it overflows down through these big slots - just like a waterfall - where it collects back in the sump. Just looking back at some pics, the oil can also overflow forward toward the cam pulleys and return to the sump behind the timing chain.
I hope that one of those rubber o rings didn't get displaced as you seated the heads and block the main oil feed to the head? I really can't think of much else, other than one of the oilways has become blocked with a foreign object????
I hope that one of those rubber o rings didn't get displaced as you seated the heads and block the main oil feed to the head? I really can't think of much else, other than one of the oilways has become blocked with a foreign object????
Edited by longbow on Monday 4th May 20:45
Unless the AJP8 has a very different oil circuit compared to the other V8s I've worked on then the oil will be fes from on common main gallery. This will split to feed both heads.
If you have oil to one and not the other then the other side is blocked. Either by the o-ring or the head gasket itself.
Head off I would have thought.
If you have oil to one and not the other then the other side is blocked. Either by the o-ring or the head gasket itself.
Head off I would have thought.
thats what im thinking, dipslaced o ring or foreign object stopping oil flow to that bank.
i will buy the drill pump anyway and have a go with that and see if i get any dribbles on the passenger side feeds.
are there supposed to be oil feeds on the cam seats below the carriers? as i had a peak earlier and could only see one feed hole on the 1st carrier the others looked smooth bu could have filled with filings from the carriers.
i will buy the drill pump anyway and have a go with that and see if i get any dribbles on the passenger side feeds.
are there supposed to be oil feeds on the cam seats below the carriers? as i had a peak earlier and could only see one feed hole on the 1st carrier the others looked smooth bu could have filled with filings from the carriers.
ks, engines going to have to come back out then.I was just thinking the same thing. Not a problem - I just hope that the damage isn't too bad - some of those items such as cams / cam caps are pretty difficult to get hold of these days, never mind pricey. I really feel for you - I know when I started my engine up after my rebuild I was absolutely bricking it that something like this would happen. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.
if you look at this pic, just below the front upper head studs on each bank, there is a small hole, this is where your oil comes out of the block and up into the heads to the cams.
there is no o ring for these holes as they are only about 2mm diameter, so either you could have a foriegn object in there which is causing an obstruction, or, have you got the correct head gaskets, and are they on the right way round.
when your engine was stripped down did you remove the oil passsage plug just behind the flywheel and blow it all through with an airline?
there is no o ring for these holes as they are only about 2mm diameter, so either you could have a foriegn object in there which is causing an obstruction, or, have you got the correct head gaskets, and are they on the right way round.
when your engine was stripped down did you remove the oil passsage plug just behind the flywheel and blow it all through with an airline?
Edited by clive f on Monday 4th May 21:03
I did not remove oil passage plug and blow it through.
my old head gaskets had a sort of metal ring for the oil feed to cams but my new ones didnt. I forgot about these o rings and had to strip it back down and I seated rubber o rings in the head gasket. these holes were bigger than the old head gasket holes so I thought they would need something to keep the oil in and stop it from soaking the heag gasket material. o rings were also mentioned to me from another PH member and dom from tvr power said they should have o rings.
im sure the head gaskets were right, it was a while ago when i fitted them and ive messed with so many other things I dont remember putting the gaskets on and making sure all water/oil ways lined up with gaset holes.
i compered both old head gaskets and they are symetrical, i know i have the holes for the high pressure oil feed holes at the front and they line up with the hole in the head as i put the o rings in.
my old head gaskets had a sort of metal ring for the oil feed to cams but my new ones didnt. I forgot about these o rings and had to strip it back down and I seated rubber o rings in the head gasket. these holes were bigger than the old head gasket holes so I thought they would need something to keep the oil in and stop it from soaking the heag gasket material. o rings were also mentioned to me from another PH member and dom from tvr power said they should have o rings.
im sure the head gaskets were right, it was a while ago when i fitted them and ive messed with so many other things I dont remember putting the gaskets on and making sure all water/oil ways lined up with gaset holes.
i compered both old head gaskets and they are symetrical, i know i have the holes for the high pressure oil feed holes at the front and they line up with the hole in the head as i put the o rings in.
Edited by plumAJP on Monday 4th May 21:15
plumAJP said:
as i had a peak earlier and could only see one feed hole on the 1st carrier the others looked smooth bu could have filled with filings from the carriers.
When Austec rebuilt my engine, Dave Martin told me there was only one feed hole. He modified mine to put a feed hole on the other side so there was an equal amount of oil getting in each side. At least I think thats what he said.
looking at clivef's picture the 2 oil feeds are at the front of the block, is this the only oil feed on the block.
does it pass through here and into the matching hole on the head and then splits to each nozzle?
i was thinking last night if there were oil feeds on the sides of the block but there are the gapping holes/gaps for water.
does it pass through here and into the matching hole on the head and then splits to each nozzle?
i was thinking last night if there were oil feeds on the sides of the block but there are the gapping holes/gaps for water.
do the front holes on the front cam bearing block also link to the threaded nozzles in between the buckets.
my 1st cam carrier is clean and lubed no scoring at all but the others were not for some reason. the holes in the cam were blocked when i checked last night now this could be from the swarf off the cam carriers or just debris from when i installed them.
but what else im concerned about are the threaded nozzles between the buckets for each piston. these are dry and so are the spaces (sumps above the bucket for lubing the cam lobes/bucket tops) so i think oil is getting to my 1st cam carrier only, the rest is blocked for some reason. i may havea go at blocing an air line down them later.
my 1st cam carrier is clean and lubed no scoring at all but the others were not for some reason. the holes in the cam were blocked when i checked last night now this could be from the swarf off the cam carriers or just debris from when i installed them.
but what else im concerned about are the threaded nozzles between the buckets for each piston. these are dry and so are the spaces (sumps above the bucket for lubing the cam lobes/bucket tops) so i think oil is getting to my 1st cam carrier only, the rest is blocked for some reason. i may havea go at blocing an air line down them later.
Looks like the head is going to need to come off again. I had a T16 rover engine did this and the cam seized in the head and stopped the engine, you were quite lucky as the alternative is that the timing chain breaks the engine gets wrecked or the cam snaps with the same result. The T16 is similar in that the cam runs direct in the alloy head without bearings. The big difference is that rover T16 heads are £20 off ebay but it may be possible to repair the head and carriers by building up the bearing surfaces with ally TIG weld and then line boring. In my case it was idiot factor as the T16 head gasket is symetric end to end so it's easy to put it on back to front and cover the oil feed holes. Looking at an AJP gasket that's not the case so in all probability there was some crud in the main oil gallery just waiting to get you. Good luck, could have been much worse.
Jon
Jon
here is ap ic of my head, so the only oil feed is the small hole visible to the top of the picture, the other holes along the length of the head are for water only yes?
here are my new gaskets if you look they are symetrical so i couldnt have put them on the wrong way. the parts of the gasket that spread over the wider parts of the heads are following the lines of the heads so they aren't on wrong.
here are my new gaskets if you look they are symetrical so i couldnt have put them on the wrong way. the parts of the gasket that spread over the wider parts of the heads are following the lines of the heads so they aren't on wrong.
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