is it time that 'detailers' got a registration system?
Discussion
basically anybody can buy the gear and call themselves a detailer without any proof of their level of competence!
can charge what they like
no guarantee to the client that they are able to do the job - no requirement for insurance etc
its open to abuse or exploitation
heck - fishing is my main pastime - to qualify as an instructor i have to have passed certain 'tests' also as you may be dealing with children secondary checks are required
but i'm not going to mess about with say £30K of somebodies car
as there are more and more people jumping on the detailing bandwagon there has got to be a system put in place that provides the client with some protection
maybe Megs or some of the other suppliers could run 'approved' training courses that guarantee a certain standard? - and not just paying a fee for a course and being guaranteed a pass!! (and yes that happens in others trades - take the course- pay the fee - you will pass)
maybe is time for a professional 'trade' body to be established?
and its easy enough to set up a web site saying what you have done - but where is the REAL customer feedback?
can charge what they like
no guarantee to the client that they are able to do the job - no requirement for insurance etc
its open to abuse or exploitation
heck - fishing is my main pastime - to qualify as an instructor i have to have passed certain 'tests' also as you may be dealing with children secondary checks are required
but i'm not going to mess about with say £30K of somebodies car
as there are more and more people jumping on the detailing bandwagon there has got to be a system put in place that provides the client with some protection
maybe Megs or some of the other suppliers could run 'approved' training courses that guarantee a certain standard? - and not just paying a fee for a course and being guaranteed a pass!! (and yes that happens in others trades - take the course- pay the fee - you will pass)
maybe is time for a professional 'trade' body to be established?
and its easy enough to set up a web site saying what you have done - but where is the REAL customer feedback?
Edited by grand cherokee on Wednesday 6th May 12:41
Edited by grand cherokee on Wednesday 6th May 12:42
It would be nice to approach possibly the ISO to set something up to to form an officially recognised association. The question is would members be happy to pay to be 'partners' and would there be different levels of membership depending upon what you offered and how you conducted your business.
The product suppliers would be useful to have onside but the paperwork and insurance issues I believe would put most 'organisers ' off.
A top idea though!
The product suppliers would be useful to have onside but the paperwork and insurance issues I believe would put most 'organisers ' off.
A top idea though!
What Grand Cherokee says is interesting however, Personally I believe that those who know what they're doing and consistently deliver quality work get repeat business mainly due to word of mouth.
In my experience there is no need to advertise when you deliver good results.
Reputations takes years to build and only moments to destroy.
The amount of curruption among manufacturers would be a minefield, there is absolutely nothing to stop any manufacturer insisting you pay them hundereds if not thousands of pounds a year to be approved to use their name and that's the key THEIR NAME. Call it money grabbing or whatever you want but you pays your money and takes your choice.
Plenty of people walked away from SwissVax when the new management decided they wanted £1500/year for approval. I wasn't prepared to pay it and neither were the majority of the previously approved guys. I had my own very specific reasons however.
Plenty of the best detailers in the land refuse to pay to promote somebody eles brand. for example Gurcharn Sahota of Elite Detailing and protection. He, for example has more work than he can possibly do and travels the length and breadth of the UK doing it and people are prepared to pay for it.. He has detailed a Veyron incidently.
The issue here is not about whose products you are allowed to say you use but about skill level. SO many people are advertising paint correction before their Porter Cable has even landed from the US. Insurance is available for detailer and valeters specifically, those who choose not get it and have no skill will soon be found out when their lack of ability means they end up owing the customer 10 times what the job was going to cost them...
I think this thread has some mileage so now I will sit back and enjoy its development. (once I have located some popcorn...)
In my experience there is no need to advertise when you deliver good results.
Reputations takes years to build and only moments to destroy.
The amount of curruption among manufacturers would be a minefield, there is absolutely nothing to stop any manufacturer insisting you pay them hundereds if not thousands of pounds a year to be approved to use their name and that's the key THEIR NAME. Call it money grabbing or whatever you want but you pays your money and takes your choice.
Plenty of people walked away from SwissVax when the new management decided they wanted £1500/year for approval. I wasn't prepared to pay it and neither were the majority of the previously approved guys. I had my own very specific reasons however.
Plenty of the best detailers in the land refuse to pay to promote somebody eles brand. for example Gurcharn Sahota of Elite Detailing and protection. He, for example has more work than he can possibly do and travels the length and breadth of the UK doing it and people are prepared to pay for it.. He has detailed a Veyron incidently.
The issue here is not about whose products you are allowed to say you use but about skill level. SO many people are advertising paint correction before their Porter Cable has even landed from the US. Insurance is available for detailer and valeters specifically, those who choose not get it and have no skill will soon be found out when their lack of ability means they end up owing the customer 10 times what the job was going to cost them...
I think this thread has some mileage so now I will sit back and enjoy its development. (once I have located some popcorn...)
Edited by NicoG on Wednesday 6th May 13:36
grand cherokee said:
belleair302 said:
It would be nice to approach possibly the ISO to set something up to to form an officially recognised association. The question is would members be happy to pay to be 'partners' and would there be different levels of membership depending upon what you offered and how you conducted your business.
The product suppliers would be useful to have onside but the paperwork and insurance issues I believe would put most 'organisers ' off.
A top idea though!
something needs to be done to control the unregulated spread of detailers without minimum standardsThe product suppliers would be useful to have onside but the paperwork and insurance issues I believe would put most 'organisers ' off.
A top idea though!
Edited by grand cherokee on Wednesday 6th May 13:15
I viewed this car yesterday after a Bmw dealership and then a well known professional detailer left it looking like this ,
ETA
Photo's removed as these breach the no adverts in the forums ruling.
These holigrams are only left by incorrect machine polishing !! and have nothing to do with how , when and where its been washed .
And the commnet about the Veyron
Well i know of a part time hobby detailer (weekends only) that has came to my unit spoke for a few hours and i have sinced recieved emails saying that he would like to work with me on weekends if possible and may turn into a proper job for him !
Now this is one of many high end cars he looks after
ETA
Photo's removed as these breach the no adverts in the forums ruling.
They hobby detailer has looked after millions of pounds worth of cars and this was due to him being in the right place at the right time aswell as knowing the right people , and not talent dependant !
But his work is good and if was not he would not still be detailing such cars !
And you will find that a few others paint corrected / detailed veyrons too , this still does not take away pauls workmanship at all or how well known he is !
The fact that an expensive pampered exotic car can be alot easier to machine correct and detail compared to an average family car that has had several owners 5-10 times the miles of the exotic car , smart repairs / repaints , owners trying a bit of detailing for themselves, gives a detailer a much harder task to turn around !
surely the fact that any damage or lack of paint correction will be evident to the customer on viewing the finished vehicle who is paying for the paint correction would slowly reduce the amount of work any poor detailer will end up with , as i have found nearly all my work comes from an exsiting customers recommendations to their friends and family !
As just the case near the end of this thread
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Its down to the customer at the moment doing there home work before booking their car in for such work , which is the only method of finding out who really is a good professional detailer !
You are right with the fact it seems that anybody that washes and waxes their car nowadays is a detailer
And i still would love to see somesort of governing body , but how would it be managed correctly , i think a wax company may be doing just that a recommended detailer section soon
I think maybe domster and PJS on here would be the best guys to write on the post with ideas and views as they are much better at that than me !
kelly
Edited by Matt172 on Thursday 14th May 22:01
Edited by domster on Wednesday 3rd June 15:33
Edited by domster on Wednesday 3rd June 15:35
A good point by Nick... I think a form of accreditation would be very valid, even if it just guaranteed some form of insurance or liability cover was in place. Judging results or performance is trickier - who is to know that 80% correction may be the best achievable on the day - or isn't? And who knows how much clearcoat had to be removed to attain a good finish, when it may have been prudent to leave the deeper scratches? Quality or performance can be subjective.
As for the Veyron comment, quite a few have detailed Veyrons now, inc Paul at Shine On. I am not sure Paul Dalton is the most respected detailer in the UK but he is still one of the best known
There were reasons behind his disappearance from the forum you mention, but not sure why the comment was made? It doesn't make the forum any less valid not to have him as a member, when there are detailers like Clark at Polished Bliss and Matt from Offyourmarks on there. And Pistonheads has Kelly at KDS, so we're well looked after
As for the Veyron comment, quite a few have detailed Veyrons now, inc Paul at Shine On. I am not sure Paul Dalton is the most respected detailer in the UK but he is still one of the best known
There were reasons behind his disappearance from the forum you mention, but not sure why the comment was made? It doesn't make the forum any less valid not to have him as a member, when there are detailers like Clark at Polished Bliss and Matt from Offyourmarks on there. And Pistonheads has Kelly at KDS, so we're well looked after Edited by domster on Wednesday 6th May 18:45
Nick, at the end of the day your never going to solve the issue of the less competent giving it a shot.
I think one of the main things in life is that people are prepared to cut corners and pay less for an amateur who may then go on to create damage, over a professional who knows what they are doing.
You get good and bad, both professional and amateur, I think word of mouth and references is the key here.
I don't think this sort of formal body is the answer. You can still get bad "tradesmen" even if they are officially certified with a formal body.
I think one of the main things in life is that people are prepared to cut corners and pay less for an amateur who may then go on to create damage, over a professional who knows what they are doing.
You get good and bad, both professional and amateur, I think word of mouth and references is the key here.
I don't think this sort of formal body is the answer. You can still get bad "tradesmen" even if they are officially certified with a formal body.
Neil_Sc said:
I don't think this sort of formal body is the answer. You can still get bad "tradesmen" even if they are officially certified with a formal body.
A good point, Neil, but at least it could show they are insured against defective workmanship or whatever... and that they give a tinkers enough to pay a 50 GBP year membership and subscribe to the code of conduct demanded of them? May be worth *something* even if not a complete guarantee Anyone who puts several tens of thousands of pounds' worth of their property into the hands of any tradesperson without first ensuring that they have a contract that will actually protect their interests, and that the appropriate liability insurances are in place is crazy IMHO.
It's no different in body repair - anyone can set up as a bodyshop (or SMART repairer).
Without being partisan, membership of some repair networks or professional associations gives a measure of protection to customers, but it's still a case of caveat emptor. We're VBRA members, but they don't check our insurance cover as part of the membership assessment. I'm not in the least offended if my customers ask to see our insurance certificates. Or MSDS, or H&S risk assessments, or whatever.
If you give your P&J to Fred-in-a-shed for paintwork, or Darren-just-imported-a-Porter-Cable for paint correction without doing your homework, you've got no-one to blame but yourself if things go wrong. There's a reason the professional operations are more expensive.
I'd imagine (but I may be wrong) that those detailers who have insurance cover make this very clear in their marketing - it makes them far more attractive to customers than those who don't?
Tol
It's no different in body repair - anyone can set up as a bodyshop (or SMART repairer).
Without being partisan, membership of some repair networks or professional associations gives a measure of protection to customers, but it's still a case of caveat emptor. We're VBRA members, but they don't check our insurance cover as part of the membership assessment. I'm not in the least offended if my customers ask to see our insurance certificates. Or MSDS, or H&S risk assessments, or whatever.
If you give your P&J to Fred-in-a-shed for paintwork, or Darren-just-imported-a-Porter-Cable for paint correction without doing your homework, you've got no-one to blame but yourself if things go wrong. There's a reason the professional operations are more expensive.
I'd imagine (but I may be wrong) that those detailers who have insurance cover make this very clear in their marketing - it makes them far more attractive to customers than those who don't?
Tol
grand cherokee said:
something needs to be done to control the unregulated spread of detailers without minimum standards
There's at least 3 other detailers who've worked on a Veyron.As for the infamous PD - at one time he was considered the country's best detailer (others hiding their light under a bushel made that possible), but he's been matched by quite a few professional and hobbyist detailers, if not surpassed by them.
As for his "banning" from the forum you refer to - there's quite a story behind why that was done, which I'm not prepared to go into, but suffice it to say, he behaved very silly towards a prominent member, and found out not to be as pure as the driven snow!
Then again, the place never benefited from his sporadic log-ins - it was all self promotion, and never offered any help to members asking his opinion on a product.
There are certainly some people whom think the sun shines out of his rear end, but most don't even give him a second's thought.
The problem with regulation, is it's a nice security blanket to have, but if anyone (as mentioned above) enquires about Liability Insurance (most wouldn't think to ask!), then a detailer, if covered, should be willing and able to prove as much.
So, aside from knowing each member has valid insurance, how then do you go about assessing their skill set? There are many various techniques in detailing, or is the trade association only to concern itself with paint correction?
Again, how do you prove each member is up to a prescribed standard? Who sets the standard? How often do they have to be "re-tested"?
As I see it, the role of the TA or Regulator has to be defined in order to be meaningful.
Equally, will the TA/Regs have any benefit to those who sign up for it? If so what?
I'd love to be involved in putting something like this together, but I just don't see (yet) where the intrinsic benefits of having something put in place pays out for all those involved - and that's the clincher. Those whom may be interested in being part of the umbrella, would need to see how being so would bring them more business than they are already drumming up for themselves on numerous forums, local dealership contacts, etc.
If it's purely an academical exercise in certificate waving, then that's easily implemented at no real cost to anyone, especially if the Detailing forum(s) were to request proof before professional members display their work(s), but that then implies amateurs don't need to for theirs or are somehow prohibited from doing so.
In the case of the latter, that'd be a helluva nightmare for the moderator(s) of that section/forum, overseeing it, or if the former, would have the pros arguing why they need to prove they're covered.
I think it's a nice idea in theory, but I don't honestly think it's workable to the extent of being ISO-like accredited or some sort of Masters Guild set-up.
Edited by domster on Wednesday 3rd June 15:39
It's a great idea in some form. I Had spoken at length to the Master Guild people, THB I was a bit put off, we come and speak to you, come and watch you do a few jobs, ask some people about your work, you pay us money, we give you a certificate.
I Worked in Quality Management for years and I see the whole accreditation in a different light - it's changed now, I used to be seen as an indication of a quality company providing good products at a good price etc, now its turned into a big cash cow for accreditation bodies. It used to be feared that come audit time every year, the man from BSI would close you down and take away his framed certificate from the wall and tell you all to go home. Now as there are so many accrediation bodies they cant afford to p*ss you off, so they give you advisories, guidance, basically they want the big cheque every year so they cant upset you.
Testimonials are the same, they are a great idea but a few companies who I won't name have openly said "I get my mates to send a few emails and testimonials" so they hold no weight in a lot of circumstances.
Forums like Ph are great for people having testimonials, yes accidents happen and insurances are there for this purpose, but its also the way in which you conduct yourself should an incident occur.
Going defensive and trying to blame it on someone else is not the sign of a good outfit and is sure to find its way onto forums - whereas being upfront with people and honest is the best approach. We all try to get it right 100% of the time and unfortunately due to the nature of the job in hand it can go wrong, thankfully its very rare for it to happen but when it does you have to accept it and keep the customer happy with the outcome.
Thats my 2p worth anyway, I just worry that the accreditation to whatever turns into a "pay money, get certificate" game.
But yes, something would be nice!!!!
Edited by 360 detailing on Thursday 7th May 10:08
360 detailing said:
unfortunately due to the nature of the job in hand it can go wrong, thankfully its very rare for it to happen but when it does you have to accept it and keep the customer happy with the outcome.
Couldn't agree more. Any human process will eventually involve an error. And professionally handling it when things go wrong can impress and reassure customers more than if things had just gone smoothly to start with. You can't promise to be perfect, but you can promise to be honest and professional should a mishap occur - it's what sets good service providers apart.Tol
Thinking on this subject, (of which I am no expert so dont want to stand on anyones toes) wouldnt an organisation like say the VBRA not be able to help.
The reason I ask is years ago Smart Repair was generally frowned upon and looked down on by the industry, now there are quite a few repairers throughout the UK that are privilidged enough to be part of the organisation. In essense some of the paint detailing/rectification work you guys carry out is body repair so there is a legitimate link to the association.
Just a thought.
The reason I ask is years ago Smart Repair was generally frowned upon and looked down on by the industry, now there are quite a few repairers throughout the UK that are privilidged enough to be part of the organisation. In essense some of the paint detailing/rectification work you guys carry out is body repair so there is a legitimate link to the association.
Just a thought.
I wondered that too.
Turns out there's already a few potential associations that look to be more specialist when I googled - the "British Valeter's Organisation" the "International Car Wash Association", the "National Vehicle Valeting Association" and in the US, the "National Association for Professional Detailing and Reconditioning", and more. Plenty had website links that don't currently work. The "British Cleaning Council" includes valeting, apparently too.
VBRA like to categorise their membership and might be persuaded to have a detailer/valeter member category (I don't think they do currently). There's MVRA and IMI out there too. They're all genuine bodies looking to provide a professional standards regime.
Another quick google (for 'VBRA valeters', 'MVRA valeters' and 'IMI valeters') suggests that all three bodies have valeter members, or at least valeters that have got an official approval out of them...
Tol
Turns out there's already a few potential associations that look to be more specialist when I googled - the "British Valeter's Organisation" the "International Car Wash Association", the "National Vehicle Valeting Association" and in the US, the "National Association for Professional Detailing and Reconditioning", and more. Plenty had website links that don't currently work. The "British Cleaning Council" includes valeting, apparently too.
VBRA like to categorise their membership and might be persuaded to have a detailer/valeter member category (I don't think they do currently). There's MVRA and IMI out there too. They're all genuine bodies looking to provide a professional standards regime.
Another quick google (for 'VBRA valeters', 'MVRA valeters' and 'IMI valeters') suggests that all three bodies have valeter members, or at least valeters that have got an official approval out of them...
Tol
360 detailing said:
It's a great idea in some form. I Had spoken at length to the Master Guild people, THB I was a bit put off, we come and speak to you, come and watch you do a few jobs, ask some people about your work, you pay us money, we give you a certificate.
I registered for Master Guild status and all they did was write to 5 clients and ask if they were happy wih the level of service I provided....As mentioned, I would advise a anyone to ask for valid insurance details. I carried mine in the van at all times as well as a list of clients who were happy to offer testimonials if approached by prospective clients.
As far as Valeting Associations, there was one that started in the UK (NVVA) but was run by a valeter and basically was a advertising vehicle with no official backup at all and was unfortunately worthless to join. Only 5 companies signed up and 3 of them were possibly 'ringers'.
I agree there should be some kind of regulation but unfortunately, this wont stop people buying machines than going out and offering their servics however dubious their credentials are.
My advice now that I am out of the professional side, is for a client to ask for insurance documents, a testimonials that they themselves can contact for piece of mind or for them to come onto PH and read some of the praise for the relevant companies on here..
kds keltec said:
Does the owner of that car's name begin with W? If so, that car is the subject of my "Joy Ride" article here... 
http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=1915...
Gassing Station | Bodywork & Detailing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff