Williams first to break ranks

[Derek Smith]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/...

No surprise there of course. This is the norm for them. I'm surprised about coming out now though.

They ask: "What else can we do?"

If this breaking of ranks doesn't damage FOTA then one might ask who they think they'll be doing it against.

From the pronouncements from FOTA it would appear that they are expecting three or four teams to remain in with Mosley. Williams was always my guess for one of them, but not the first.

It's a sad day for one of the three greats over the last 25 years. Reduced to a plaintive wail.

[FNG]

He could stand firm with the rest of the teams, for example. Without unity Max can divide and conquer, and the game is lost.

He runs a race team, he doesn't have to race in MM's tinpot championship though.

If every team stood together, Max would be left with GP2 entrants trying to put teams together. And there's a reason those teams don't run in F1 - cos they don't have the very best people running or working in them.

[navier_stokes]

It makes sense.

For the big teams, they have much more financial security to back up their threats... if they lose out it's not all over, they've still got the rest of their business; Ferrari, Red Bull, BMW, Toyota, and to an extent McLaren. If Williams don't enter and the FOTA side of things goes tits up, they won't be racing next year, and as Williams ARE racing, they will be out of business immediately.

[Northern Munkee]

'But for smaller teams like Williams, Brawn and Force India, F1 is their core business, and threatening to not take part would be too great a risk to their very existence.'

Leaving aside Max Mosley, and how can he/dare he draconian dictats

You can't blame Williams, for breaking out of shaky united front, cos you wouldn't bet your business on it & they are only an F1 race team.

Let's suggest they all boycotted, and FIA decided, okay then that F1 would be a one make chassis, provided by say Dallara, Cosworth provide the motor. GP2/F2/F3/A1GP teams all buy in, (with hefty incentives), the manufacturers say we'll start our own break away series, the small F1 teams also join, using customer engines, then for reasons unknown manufacturers start dropping out for commercial reasons or financial, technical or political reasons, the series folds.

Williams would be stuffed. "F1" will have moved on, it's not a constructor champs, anymore, yes they could run a team, however they would have to buy in, have no need of a large engineering factory, and a workforce sitting idol, obviously to a degree they will have to downside or diversify anyway. But signing up to cap, keeps them in their core business, gets the benefits of signing on to the next concorde agreement with full benefits, as that will follow.

And for instance, bare in mind the FIA is the licensing authority motor sport globally, and a break away series needs tracks to race on, unless you want 16 street tracks, I wouldn't expect much co operation from the FIA for a competing championship.

And lets face facts Williams have struggled for budget, have no manufacturer partnership, so this is an opportunity to compete on a leveller playing field with any manufacturer team.

Don't suggest that if a break away champs did not get off the ground they could run in sportscar or touring cars, the former is a much smaller scale, and like wise, touring cars would also require a manufacturer in partnership.

Times have changed, Max knows it, its fait de compli, Bernie neutered group C by attracting most of the manufacturers into F1, as teams or engine suppliers, so sports cars is low on the radar, in media and sponsorship $, and in the intervening period every other championship on track has gone to a single make chassis, (plus touring cars) all of which have become dwarfed by the size of a bloated F1.

In summary, the FIA and F1 is the only show in town. Max knows this, and for any posturing McLaren, , Force I, Williams & Brawn are stuck, there is nowhere else to go, and less security (the FIA F1 has been going for 50 years) and to much the same extent but for different reasons so are Ferrari. Red Bull, BMW, Toyota, Renault, could just build road cars, and could afford to offload most of their GP infastructure, and run touring cars and rallying, or sports cars but on a much smaller scale, smaller than the cap £80m (incl extras).

Game over.

EFA Red Bull in the manufacturer camp, manufacturing drinks!

Edited by Northern Munkee on Monday 11th May 20:19

Edited by Northern Munkee on Monday 11th May 20:20

[Kinky]

I thought it was well known and accepted within FOTA that these 3 teams would be in this position as it's their core and only business. I was under the impression that they are not being deemed as 'breaking rank'.

[andyps]

Unfortnately, by shoring up their business with the F2 contract Williams have probably got their colours too closely tied to the FIA mast to be able to afford not to play by the rules of MM. It is a real shame as Frank Williams is the last true racer in F1 now that Ron Dennis has gone, for the others it is either a career or a business.

I would have liked to see Williams stick with the others, but can understand why they feel they have to get an entry lodged. Question is, will they go down the capped route, and if so, who will supply them the engine?

[Derek Smith]

andyps said:

Unfortnately, by shoring up their business with the F2 contract Williams have probably got their colours too closely tied to the FIA mast to be able to afford not to play by the rules of MM. It is a real shame as Frank Williams is the last true racer in F1 now that Ron Dennis has gone, for the others it is either a career or a business.

I would have liked to see Williams stick with the others, but can understand why they feel they have to get an entry lodged. Question is, will they go down the capped route, and if so, who will supply them the engine?

I wasn't necessarily criticisng FW as I can see where his problems are. As you say, he is a part of the FiA. What I was lamenting was the fact that Wiliams was F1 in the old days. He and RD ran the business. Sic transit I suppose but having a latin prase that sums it up doesn't make it any easier.

[andyps]

Derek Smith said:

andyps said:

Unfortnately, by shoring up their business with the F2 contract Williams have probably got their colours too closely tied to the FIA mast to be able to afford not to play by the rules of MM. It is a real shame as Frank Williams is the last true racer in F1 now that Ron Dennis has gone, for the others it is either a career or a business.

I would have liked to see Williams stick with the others, but can understand why they feel they have to get an entry lodged. Question is, will they go down the capped route, and if so, who will supply them the engine?

I wasn't necessarily criticisng FW as I can see where his problems are. As you say, he is a part of the FiA. What I was lamenting was the fact that Wiliams was F1 in the old days. He and RD ran the business. Sic transit I suppose but having a latin prase that sums it up doesn't make it any easier.

For many years I was more of a fan of Williams than McLaren, and in many ways still am as they have done pretty well as pure racers, aiming to do really well just at racing whilst Ron had his desire to be impeccable at everything, some of which did not directly make the cars faster. I do realise however, that those things helped raise the professionalism, and therefore income, which have made McLaren the more successful recently. The fact that Ron and Frank had great respect for each other, and were able to talk to each other, whilst trying hard to beat each other made them the two to support. And as you say, made them top of the sport and business.

It is surprising that Williams are looking likely to be the first to break ranks, I thought, and hoped, they would hold out longer.

[flemke]

andyps said:

Derek Smith said:

andyps said:

Unfortnately, by shoring up their business with the F2 contract Williams have probably got their colours too closely tied to the FIA mast to be able to afford not to play by the rules of MM. It is a real shame as Frank Williams is the last true racer in F1 now that Ron Dennis has gone, for the others it is either a career or a business.

I would have liked to see Williams stick with the others, but can understand why they feel they have to get an entry lodged. Question is, will they go down the capped route, and if so, who will supply them the engine?

I wasn't necessarily criticisng FW as I can see where his problems are. As you say, he is a part of the FiA. What I was lamenting was the fact that Wiliams was F1 in the old days. He and RD ran the business. Sic transit I suppose but having a latin prase that sums it up doesn't make it any easier.

For many years I was more of a fan of Williams than McLaren, and in many ways still am as they have done pretty well as pure racers, aiming to do really well just at racing whilst Ron had his desire to be impeccable at everything, some of which did not directly make the cars faster. I do realise however, that those things helped raise the professionalism, and therefore income, which have made McLaren the more successful recently. The fact that Ron and Frank had great respect for each other, and were able to talk to each other, whilst trying hard to beat each other made them the two to support. And as you say, made them top of the sport and business.

It is surprising that Williams are looking likely to be the first to break ranks, I thought, and hoped, they would hold out longer.

Although there undoubtedly is more to this than meets the eye, my guess is that FW thinks that he has no choice.

[german tony]

That Williams has no loyalty except to hom/it'self should be of no suprise to anybody who has been following the sport for longer than 5 minutes.

[flemke]

german tony said:

That Williams has no loyalty except to hom/it'self should be of no suprise to anybody who has been following the sport for longer than 5 minutes.

Loyalty to hundreds of employees, whose careers and families would be in jeopardy if the team went down?

[V8 GRF]

flemke said:

german tony said:

That Williams has no loyalty except to hom/it'self should be of no suprise to anybody who has been following the sport for longer than 5 minutes.

Loyalty to hundreds of employees, whose careers and families would be in jeopardy if the team went down?

Hmmm not to sure that loyalty has too much to do with it to be honest, Frank Williams will be top of Frank Williams' list of priorities, especially as already mentioned the contract to build the new F2 cars. I know it's mainly Patrick Heads's initiative but it all adds to the Williams team bottom line and Wlliams are the last of the original privately owned teams. I've read his biography and enough other F1 related books and articles that include Frank williams and to be honest he doesn't come across as a particularily nice guy. He's a hard man either harder than Ron Denis in my opinion, not many men would sack two world champions.

[flemke]

V8 GRF said:

I've read his biography and enough other F1 related books and articles that include Frank williams and to be honest he doesn't come across as a particularily nice guy. He's a hard man either harder than Ron Denis in my opinion, not many men would sack two world champions.

Fwiw, I've enough information to make me fairly confident that you're wrong about your conclusions, although I can understand how what has been published would have led you to them.

Cheers.

[groomi]

I feel for Williams. They are exactly the kind of team that the 'sport' needs - ie. a racing team that exists to race, not a manufacturer who is playing at racing.

They are stuck between a rock and a hard place as they have no future outside of F1 (especially in the current financial climate). Frank and Patrick are both at an age where they must surely be looking for a suitable exit strategy which will reward them for their years of hard work - that probably requires selling the team in the next few years, hence they cannot risk letting the team become a non-entity. They must maintain it's value - which ironically would be helped if the budget cap wasn't introduced as it would then still be cheaper for new teams to buy an old one rather than start from scratch.

[Derek Smith]

andyps said:

For many years I was more of a fan of Williams than McLaren, and in many ways still am as they have done pretty well as pure racers, aiming to do really well just at racing whilst Ron had his desire to be impeccable at everything, some of which did not directly make the cars faster. I do realise however, that those things helped raise the professionalism, and therefore income, which have made McLaren the more successful recently. The fact that Ron and Frank had great respect for each other, and were able to talk to each other, whilst trying hard to beat each other made them the two to support. And as you say, made them top of the sport and business.

Well said.

I too was a fan of FW and RD equally in those days. I don't know why I drifted towards RD but from my response to him leaving Mclaren F1 has made me realise that it was more him than his team.

RD and FW/PH are the grandees. It is sad that Mosley has brought F1 to this.

[Derek Smith]

german tony said:

That Williams has no loyalty except to hom/it'self should be of no suprise to anybody who has been following the sport for longer than 5 minutes.

He took a stand against Honda's demands to manipulate the sport and that cost him and his team.

[andyps]

Whilst Williams almost certainly feel they have no choice, assuming they enter in the budget capped category I wonder who will supply their engines. Until Toyota say which way they are going it would be difficult to get a commitment from them for the engines Williams currently use. I can't see an engine manufacturer wanting to make two categories of engines, particularly at a time when costs are supposed to be being cut.

There was a very interesting comment from John Howett in the Radio 5 podcast where he said that with the proposed £40 million cap the items which are not included could easily lead to a budget of £150 million - so not much of a saving there, probably an increase over what some teams currently spend.

[Derek Smith]

andyps said:

Whilst Williams almost certainly feel they have no choice, assuming they enter in the budget capped category I wonder who will supply their engines. Until Toyota say which way they are going it would be difficult to get a commitment from them for the engines Williams currently use. I can't see an engine manufacturer wanting to make two categories of engines, particularly at a time when costs are supposed to be being cut.

There was a very interesting comment from John Howett in the Radio 5 podcast where he said that with the proposed £40 million cap the items which are not included could easily lead to a budget of £150 million - so not much of a saving there, probably an increase over what some teams currently spend.

Any chance of a link, Andy?

[DJC]

flemke said:

V8 GRF said:

I've read his biography and enough other F1 related books and articles that include Frank williams and to be honest he doesn't come across as a particularily nice guy. He's a hard man either harder than Ron Denis in my opinion, not many men would sack two world champions.

Fwiw, I've enough information to make me fairly confident that you're wrong about your conclusions, although I can understand how what has been published would have led you to them.

Cheers.

Fwiw Ive enough information to make me fairly confident that whilst he is being a little harsh on FW, he isnt too far wide of the mark. As a chap Frank is fine, he isnt particularly nasty, financially however he is very very hard and that all stems from Frank's younger days.

[flemke]

DJC said:

flemke said:

V8 GRF said:

I've read his biography and enough other F1 related books and articles that include Frank williams and to be honest he doesn't come across as a particularily nice guy. He's a hard man either harder than Ron Denis in my opinion, not many men would sack two world champions.

Fwiw, I've enough information to make me fairly confident that you're wrong about your conclusions, although I can understand how what has been published would have led you to them.

Cheers.

Fwiw Ive enough information to make me fairly confident that whilst he is being a little harsh on FW, he isnt too far wide of the mark. As a chap Frank is fine, he isnt particularly nasty, financially however he is very very hard and that all stems from Frank's younger days.

Then perhaps we can differentiate between being niggardly in the pecuniary sense and not being a particularly nice guy, which generally connotes being a particularly un-nice guy?