Is this illegal? PAYE question.
Discussion
Hi all - Mrs JCB has had ongoing problems with her employer, a Nursery.
I won't go into detail about previous pay cook-ups, but today it came to a head!
Scenario - Mrs JCB recevied her pay with £18.45 (3hrs worth) taken off her salary....another employee had extra added onto her salary....
Mrs JCB works 30 hrs (4 days) a week, she has a wednesday off.
The other employee works 30 hrs (4 days) a week, she has a monday off.
The managers explained that Mrs JCB received pay for have a Bank Holiday Monday off, whilst the other employee didn't receive the benefit of a bank holiday, therefore money was deducted from Mrs JCB's salary and some was added to the other employess salary.
I'm pretty sure this is illegal....where does she stand?
Please and thank you in advance.
Mr JCB
I won't go into detail about previous pay cook-ups, but today it came to a head!
Scenario - Mrs JCB recevied her pay with £18.45 (3hrs worth) taken off her salary....another employee had extra added onto her salary....
Mrs JCB works 30 hrs (4 days) a week, she has a wednesday off.
The other employee works 30 hrs (4 days) a week, she has a monday off.
The managers explained that Mrs JCB received pay for have a Bank Holiday Monday off, whilst the other employee didn't receive the benefit of a bank holiday, therefore money was deducted from Mrs JCB's salary and some was added to the other employess salary.
I'm pretty sure this is illegal....where does she stand?
Please and thank you in advance.
Mr JCB
So Mrs JCB would normally work Mon,Tues,Thurs and Friday, 7.5hrs each day, totalling 30 hrs per week.
If the nursery was closed on a BH Mon, then she can't work that day, so for that week she would earn 3 days pay, and if she had to take that BH Mon as part of her holiday entitlement, then she should recieve the relevent pro rata entitlement for that day. So if she worked 4/5ths of the week, then she should recieve 80% of a days pay (7.5hrs x 80% = 6hrs holiday pay) added to her 3 days that she did work. So it would appear she is missing 2.5 hrs pay if what you have said is accurate.
The issue with the other employee is the same except that she wouldn't work Mondays, but is still entitled to BH pay at the same rate as your wife. Apart from that, the two pay issues aren't connected, that is, your wife hasn't had money deducted, and then had that given to the other employee.
What I have written may not be 100%,it would depend on the contract that exists between your wife and her employer, and the holiday entitlement that is written in it.
Both your wife and the other employee would be entitled to the same holiday, just bad luck on your wifes part that she works on a Monday, but the other one doesn't.
If the nursery was closed on a BH Mon, then she can't work that day, so for that week she would earn 3 days pay, and if she had to take that BH Mon as part of her holiday entitlement, then she should recieve the relevent pro rata entitlement for that day. So if she worked 4/5ths of the week, then she should recieve 80% of a days pay (7.5hrs x 80% = 6hrs holiday pay) added to her 3 days that she did work. So it would appear she is missing 2.5 hrs pay if what you have said is accurate.
The issue with the other employee is the same except that she wouldn't work Mondays, but is still entitled to BH pay at the same rate as your wife. Apart from that, the two pay issues aren't connected, that is, your wife hasn't had money deducted, and then had that given to the other employee.
What I have written may not be 100%,it would depend on the contract that exists between your wife and her employer, and the holiday entitlement that is written in it.
Both your wife and the other employee would be entitled to the same holiday, just bad luck on your wifes part that she works on a Monday, but the other one doesn't.
Actually I think it's simpler than that.
Mrs JCB is entitled to a statutory 28 days paid holiday in a year (Bank Hols included). As she works 4 days a week this is pro-rata'd to 22.4 days holiday pay at 7.5hours per day.
If she doesn't work on a bank holiday, she should have been given the option of taking it as holiday. The other employee who doesn't work Mondays didn't require that option. If Mrs JCB had taken the BH Monday as holiday then the wage packets would be the identical.
What appears to have occurred is more a misunderstanding about statutory holiday entitlement. Bank Holidays have no special recognition in employment law, rather they are treated as an potentially optional working day for some firms. If you don't work it and you get paid, you are using holiday entitlement. If you don't work it and don't get paid then it's a normal non-working day. If you work it and get paid it's a normal working day (no statutory requirement for enhanced pay, for example)
In summary, the explanation given is wrong and Mrs JCB should challenge their workings.
Mrs JCB is entitled to a statutory 28 days paid holiday in a year (Bank Hols included). As she works 4 days a week this is pro-rata'd to 22.4 days holiday pay at 7.5hours per day.
If she doesn't work on a bank holiday, she should have been given the option of taking it as holiday. The other employee who doesn't work Mondays didn't require that option. If Mrs JCB had taken the BH Monday as holiday then the wage packets would be the identical.
What appears to have occurred is more a misunderstanding about statutory holiday entitlement. Bank Holidays have no special recognition in employment law, rather they are treated as an potentially optional working day for some firms. If you don't work it and you get paid, you are using holiday entitlement. If you don't work it and don't get paid then it's a normal non-working day. If you work it and get paid it's a normal working day (no statutory requirement for enhanced pay, for example)
In summary, the explanation given is wrong and Mrs JCB should challenge their workings.
Edited by apguy on Thursday 14th May 23:15
Amused2death said:
the two pay issues aren't connected, that is, your wife hasn't had money deducted, and then had that given to the other employee.
This has happened - the nursery said it was unfair that some employees get paid for having a day off (the BH), whilst some employees who don't work mondays, don't receive this benefit.In simple terms, Mrs JCB and the other employee (lets call her Fatty) both get paid £500/mth....last month, Mrs JCB received £482 whilst Fatty received £518.
If the nursery was not open on this day, Mrs JCB could not possibly have gone to work, therefore must be given this day as part of her bank holiday entitlement?!
The contracts at their work are another issue....they changed a year or so ago, and the boss of the company cut out the girls' signatures from the previous contract and stuck it in the new ones! I know for sure that that isn't aloud! They also have no written annual salary proof.....the whole company is a mess, but unfortunately Mrs JCB won't move!
Other than the company themselves, who won't understand or care, who else can we go to to get something in writing saying that what is happening is not on?!
Thanks
/\/\/\/\/\/\
Sorry to hear your other half wont see sense and walk, I appreciate in the current economic climate that finding further work may be difficult.
My observation was based on working for a company that plays by the rules. As you have pointed out, this doesn't seem to be the case for your wifes employer.
I can't offer anything more to help you with the issues you described.....If the boss see themselves as so untouchable in terms of basic employee rights, then they really need to be taken to a tribunal.
I hope you manage to achieve a resolution.
ATB
Sorry to hear your other half wont see sense and walk, I appreciate in the current economic climate that finding further work may be difficult.
My observation was based on working for a company that plays by the rules. As you have pointed out, this doesn't seem to be the case for your wifes employer.
I can't offer anything more to help you with the issues you described.....If the boss see themselves as so untouchable in terms of basic employee rights, then they really need to be taken to a tribunal.
I hope you manage to achieve a resolution.
ATB
JCB123 said:
Amused2death said:
, then they really need to be taken to a tribunal.
Thank you. Who's the first person we should contact....hopefully even the threat of this shall sort it out...http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461
I haven't looked at the site, but there may be a contact telephone number on there
HTH
As has been said before, the employer has simply got this wrong and chosen to 'sort it' is a very strange way!
I would try and reason with them, and maybe just print them out something from the net which explains the lawful way it is done.
I mean if they are thinking what they are doing is correct, when one employee gets another benefit like sick pay or maternity leave to they dock everyone elses wages to make up for it, or spread the benefit between everyone!!??
I would try and reason with them, and maybe just print them out something from the net which explains the lawful way it is done.
I mean if they are thinking what they are doing is correct, when one employee gets another benefit like sick pay or maternity leave to they dock everyone elses wages to make up for it, or spread the benefit between everyone!!??
Tuscanless Ali said:
If your wife is paid a set salary each week/month based on 4 days @ 7.5 hours, then I think for every bank holiday your wife has off she should be deducted 1.5 hours pay.
The other woman should get 22.4 days holiday, up to her when she takes them.
Why should she get 1.5 hours pay deducted?The other woman should get 22.4 days holiday, up to her when she takes them.
JCB123 said:
Tuscanless Ali said:
If your wife is paid a set salary each week/month based on 4 days @ 7.5 hours, then I think for every bank holiday your wife has off she should be deducted 1.5 hours pay.
The other woman should get 22.4 days holiday, up to her when she takes them.
Why should she get 1.5 hours pay deducted?The other woman should get 22.4 days holiday, up to her when she takes them.
7.5 hrs - 1.5 hrs = 6 hrs = 80% of normal holiday pay. Your wife works 80% of a full working week, so is entitled to 80% of a full days pay = 6hrs
Edited by Amused2death on Friday 15th May 21:32
Amused2death said:
JCB123 said:
Tuscanless Ali said:
If your wife is paid a set salary each week/month based on 4 days @ 7.5 hours, then I think for every bank holiday your wife has off she should be deducted 1.5 hours pay.
The other woman should get 22.4 days holiday, up to her when she takes them.
Why should she get 1.5 hours pay deducted?The other woman should get 22.4 days holiday, up to her when she takes them.
7.5 hrs - 1.5 hrs = 6 hrs = 80% of normal holiday pay. Your wife works 80% of a full working week, so is entitled to 80% of a full days pay = 6hrs
Edited by Amused2death on Friday 15th May 21:32
I would suggest however that this may be unlikely as the figures in the OP given do not add up.
If the contract does not stipulate as above, then basically the employer has denied the opportunity to work that day and reduced pay.
JustinP1 said:
That would be one way of working it out and might be correct as long as he contract specifically stipulates that her holiday allowance includes bank holidays.
Statutory holiday entitlement changed in April to 5.6 weeks minimum, most employers are including the bank holidays within this entitlement. Ah, thanks all - her contract doesn't state that her holidays include bank holidays.
In addition - even if they did, the contract is legally binding as I said above, none of them have actually signed it....ha!
Shat-hole....I wish she'd leave and set up on her own like she was going to do a year or so ago....I'll keep trying!
JCB
In addition - even if they did, the contract is legally binding as I said above, none of them have actually signed it....ha!
Shat-hole....I wish she'd leave and set up on her own like she was going to do a year or so ago....I'll keep trying!
JCB
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