What is the world coming to: homeopathy pills get approval..
Discussion
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/he...
I know they can only get indicative labelling for minor complaints, and since they are no more effective than a placebo, they are harmless - but what does this say about evidence based medical treatment (notwithstanding the known abuses of big pharma).
A blow to human intelligence this one.
I know they can only get indicative labelling for minor complaints, and since they are no more effective than a placebo, they are harmless - but what does this say about evidence based medical treatment (notwithstanding the known abuses of big pharma).
A blow to human intelligence this one.
king-lutely. We are going backwards!johnfm said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/he...
I know they can only get indicative labelling for minor complaints, and since they are no more effective than a placebo, they are harmless
unless you underdose on the stuff I know they can only get indicative labelling for minor complaints, and since they are no more effective than a placebo, they are harmless
ludo said:
johnfm said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/he...
I know they can only get indicative labelling for minor complaints, and since they are no more effective than a placebo, they are harmless
unless you underdose on the stuff I know they can only get indicative labelling for minor complaints, and since they are no more effective than a placebo, they are harmless
999: What's happened
rice eating yoghurt weaver:He's underdosed on essence of burdock moon ray juice...
elster said:
I don't understand what peoples problems with homeopathy is.
If it works why not?
Why do people assume it has to be a particular cocktail of chemicals for it to work?
I was given coca for altitude sickness after the drugs the expedition doctor had were no use to me.
coca is not 'homeopathy'.If it works why not?
Why do people assume it has to be a particular cocktail of chemicals for it to work?
I was given coca for altitude sickness after the drugs the expedition doctor had were no use to me.
I have no issue with stuff like thuja, tea trea oil etc - native americans and australian aborigines (and others) have a long history of natural medicines/drugs. THese are chemicals that have an effect on the body.
Homeopathy is quackery - a sugar pill or water with a 'magic trace' of something - so dilute that no molecule of the original 'medicinal bit' exists in the dose.
It is no more effective than placebo.
I have no issue with people paying for homeopathy - it is a simple formula. Always tell the patient you know exactly what is wrong with them and what will cure them. A sympathetic ear and unambiguous diagnosis go a long way to 'curing' peoples ills.
But it shouldn't be licensed nor provided on the NHS.
elster said:
I don't understand what peoples problems with homeopathy is.
If it works why not?
Why do people assume it has to be a particular cocktail of chemicals for it to work?
I was given coca for altitude sickness after the drugs the expedition doctor had were no use to me.
Whats the harm ?If it works why not?
Why do people assume it has to be a particular cocktail of chemicals for it to work?
I was given coca for altitude sickness after the drugs the expedition doctor had were no use to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEDYsI7lBd8
smh said:
THE parents of a nine-month-old girl who died from septicemia were responsible for their baby's death because they shunned conventional medical treatment for her eczema in favour of homeopathic remedies, a court heard yesterday.
A homeopath, Thomas Sam, 42, and his wife, Manju Sam, 36, are standing trial in the NSW Supreme Court charged with manslaughter by gross criminal negligence after they allegedly resisted the advice of nurses and a doctor to send her to a skin specialist.
Instead Gloria Thomas, who was born in perfect health in July 2001, allegedly died with malnutrition and eczema so severe that her skin broke every time her parents removed her clothes and nappy.
The court heard that Gloria was above average weight, height and head circumference until she was four months old, but lost 20 per cent of her body weight in the last five months of her life after a nurse first identified her eczema and advised her parents to send her to a skin specialist.
The Crown prosecutor, Mark Tedeschi, QC, told the court they sat on this advice for two months and then saw a general practitioner who was so concerned by her condition that he told them to see a skin specialist immediately. But again, they demurred.
"The Crown case is that from this point on, for the next five months of her life until her death … Gloria's eczema played a devastating role in her overall health and it is asserted by the Crown that both her parents knew this and discussed it with each other," Mr Tedeschi said.
"Over time the eczema caused her skin to become thinner and weaker and the constant breaking of the skin allowed infections to enter her body."
The parents, who each had university degrees and postgraduate qualifications, instead sought help from other homeopaths and natural medicine practitioners, Mr Tedeschi said.
On the few occasions that they did follow conventional medical advice, Gloria would improve, but they would soon revert to homeopathic remedies and she would continue to deteriorate.
"Gloria spent a lot of the last five months of her life crying, irritable, scratching and the only thing that gave her solace was to suck on her mother's breast," Mr Tedeschi said.
"Towards the end she was sleeping an inordinate amount of time, her body desperately trying to overcome these infections."
Thomas Sam's sister allegedly "pleaded" with him to send Gloria to a conventional medical practitioner. He allegedly replied: "I'm not able to do that."
Mr Tedeschi said the parents knew their daughter was suffering from malnutrition, that she was losing weight, and even that it was all due to her eczema.
"Despite their observations … they failed to follow through with any proper serious conventional medicine attention for Gloria from proper doctors, as opposed to homeopaths."
Homeopathy contends that water has a memory which holds the 'chi' of a diluted substance (Diluted to the point where there is no active ingredients, it is just a vial of water). A homeopath, Thomas Sam, 42, and his wife, Manju Sam, 36, are standing trial in the NSW Supreme Court charged with manslaughter by gross criminal negligence after they allegedly resisted the advice of nurses and a doctor to send her to a skin specialist.
Instead Gloria Thomas, who was born in perfect health in July 2001, allegedly died with malnutrition and eczema so severe that her skin broke every time her parents removed her clothes and nappy.
The court heard that Gloria was above average weight, height and head circumference until she was four months old, but lost 20 per cent of her body weight in the last five months of her life after a nurse first identified her eczema and advised her parents to send her to a skin specialist.
The Crown prosecutor, Mark Tedeschi, QC, told the court they sat on this advice for two months and then saw a general practitioner who was so concerned by her condition that he told them to see a skin specialist immediately. But again, they demurred.
"The Crown case is that from this point on, for the next five months of her life until her death … Gloria's eczema played a devastating role in her overall health and it is asserted by the Crown that both her parents knew this and discussed it with each other," Mr Tedeschi said.
"Over time the eczema caused her skin to become thinner and weaker and the constant breaking of the skin allowed infections to enter her body."
The parents, who each had university degrees and postgraduate qualifications, instead sought help from other homeopaths and natural medicine practitioners, Mr Tedeschi said.
On the few occasions that they did follow conventional medical advice, Gloria would improve, but they would soon revert to homeopathic remedies and she would continue to deteriorate.
"Gloria spent a lot of the last five months of her life crying, irritable, scratching and the only thing that gave her solace was to suck on her mother's breast," Mr Tedeschi said.
"Towards the end she was sleeping an inordinate amount of time, her body desperately trying to overcome these infections."
Thomas Sam's sister allegedly "pleaded" with him to send Gloria to a conventional medical practitioner. He allegedly replied: "I'm not able to do that."
Mr Tedeschi said the parents knew their daughter was suffering from malnutrition, that she was losing weight, and even that it was all due to her eczema.
"Despite their observations … they failed to follow through with any proper serious conventional medicine attention for Gloria from proper doctors, as opposed to homeopaths."
You have to ask though, if water remembers the good 'chi' of a substance, why does it forget all the urine, feces, vomit and other unpleasant bodily fluids that passes through it ?
So not only does water hold 'chi' now, it's also concious and making decisions to decide what's good and bad to remember.
They like to say "Healing without Harm" no side-effects etc. That is because there are NO effects.. NONE!
People selling homeopathic remedies are at best unbelievably misguided, at worst they are fraudsters and thieves that cause tragedies like the link above.
So to anyone who wants a homeopathic remedy, go drink a glass of water.
johnfm said:
elster said:
I don't understand what peoples problems with homeopathy is.
If it works why not?
Why do people assume it has to be a particular cocktail of chemicals for it to work?
I was given coca for altitude sickness after the drugs the expedition doctor had were no use to me.
coca is not 'homeopathy'.If it works why not?
Why do people assume it has to be a particular cocktail of chemicals for it to work?
I was given coca for altitude sickness after the drugs the expedition doctor had were no use to me.
I have no issue with stuff like thuja, tea trea oil etc - native americans and australian aborigines (and others) have a long history of natural medicines/drugs. THese are chemicals that have an effect on the body.
Homeopathy is quackery - a sugar pill or water with a 'magic trace' of something - so dilute that no molecule of the original 'medicinal bit' exists in the dose.
It is no more effective than placebo.
I have no issue with people paying for homeopathy - it is a simple formula. Always tell the patient you know exactly what is wrong with them and what will cure them. A sympathetic ear and unambiguous diagnosis go a long way to 'curing' peoples ills.
But it shouldn't be licensed nor provided on the NHS.
I thought it was herbal and naturally occurring substances.
Just read what it actually is. They basically dilute something so much none of the original substance is in it, but the water has memory.
Bloke collapses at one of those ‘Mind, Body. Spirit’ festivals.
All the hippies run from their stands are start doing reikki, and all kinds of spiritual healing on him, meanwhile he’s turning blue from heart attack, & stopped breathing.
Medic runs over and defribs him with those electric shock pads, he’s up and talking in 2-3 and on his way to hospital. Much disappointment amongst the hippies.
Dunno if it’s true, was told to me by hippie spiritual healing friend.
All the hippies run from their stands are start doing reikki, and all kinds of spiritual healing on him, meanwhile he’s turning blue from heart attack, & stopped breathing.
Medic runs over and defribs him with those electric shock pads, he’s up and talking in 2-3 and on his way to hospital. Much disappointment amongst the hippies.
Dunno if it’s true, was told to me by hippie spiritual healing friend.
sstein said:
Homeopathy contends that water has a memory which holds the 'chi' of a diluted substance (Diluted to the point where there is no active ingredients, it is just a vial of water).
You have to ask though, if water remembers the good 'chi' of a substance, why does it forget all the urine, feces, vomit and other unpleasant bodily fluids that passes through it ?
So not only does water hold 'chi' now, it's also concious and making decisions to decide what's good and bad to remember.
They like to say "Healing without Harm" no side-effects etc. That is because there are NO effects.. NONE!
People selling homeopathic remedies are at best unbelievably misguided, at worst they are fraudsters and thieves that cause tragedies like the link above.
So to anyone who wants a homeopathic remedy, go drink a glass of water.
Maybe homeopathic remedies don't work via chemical methods, I strongly believe they are more psychological then chemical.You have to ask though, if water remembers the good 'chi' of a substance, why does it forget all the urine, feces, vomit and other unpleasant bodily fluids that passes through it ?
So not only does water hold 'chi' now, it's also concious and making decisions to decide what's good and bad to remember.
They like to say "Healing without Harm" no side-effects etc. That is because there are NO effects.. NONE!
People selling homeopathic remedies are at best unbelievably misguided, at worst they are fraudsters and thieves that cause tragedies like the link above.
So to anyone who wants a homeopathic remedy, go drink a glass of water.
Our current understanding of how the human mind and body works is very very far from complete. We don't know what effects the mind can have on the health of the body
Maybe the idea behind this is enough to help the mind heal the body if the person to who it is administered belives it will work this could somehow help the mind and body heal. Yes it can't work on a chemical viewpoint but i feel that we are so much more then a bag of chemicals.
Yes what you quoted was people with closed minds to conventional medicine but to have a closed mind to alternative medicine is just as bad.
thinfourth2 said:
Maybe homeopathic remedies don't work via chemical methods, I strongly believe they are more psychological then chemical.
Our current understanding of how the human mind and body works is very very far from complete. We don't know what effects the mind can have on the health of the body
Maybe the idea behind this is enough to help the mind heal the body if the person to who it is administered belives it will work this could somehow help the mind and body heal. Yes it can't work on a chemical viewpoint but i feel that we are so much more then a bag of chemicals.
Yes what you quoted was people with closed minds to conventional medicine but to have a closed mind to alternative medicine is just as bad.
Indeed. They only work via the placebo effect- i.e. some mechanism we don't yet understand, with the mind having an effect on the body. There is no difference between a 'homoeopathic preparation' and plain old water. The reason being a homoeopathic preparation IS plain old water. Demonstrate a measurable difference between the two and collect your Nobel prize along with James Randis million pound woo prize on the way.Our current understanding of how the human mind and body works is very very far from complete. We don't know what effects the mind can have on the health of the body
Maybe the idea behind this is enough to help the mind heal the body if the person to who it is administered belives it will work this could somehow help the mind and body heal. Yes it can't work on a chemical viewpoint but i feel that we are so much more then a bag of chemicals.
Yes what you quoted was people with closed minds to conventional medicine but to have a closed mind to alternative medicine is just as bad.
Alternative medicine is only 'alternative' if it can't pass a proper trial. As soon as it's proved to work it's just medicine. No closed mindedness involved.
We are just a leaky bag of chemicals and some electrical impulses. What else is there?
thinfourth2 said:
Maybe the idea behind this is enough to help the mind heal the body if the person to who it is administered belives it will work this could somehow help the mind and body heal. Yes it can't work on a chemical viewpoint but i feel that we are so much more then a bag of chemicals.
In science, it's not enough to have a feeling, thankfully.thinfourth2 said:
Yes what you quoted was people with closed minds to conventional medicine but to have a closed mind to alternative medicine is just as bad.
Show me the evidence that shows homeopathy works ? Show me the clinical trials that show it has an effect greater than a placebo effect ?I'm not closed minded, I'm just not gullible enough to believe what ever a woo-woo new age mystic tells me.
If someone is making a claim, like homeopathic practitioners are, the onus is on them to back up their claims. Why can't any of them do it ? And when you are claiming that water (H2O) has memory and is essentially a decision making concious entity, you better have some spectacular evidence to back up those claims, or people are going to call you on it - and rightly so.
I stand by what I said, fraudsters or idiots.
ETA: Don't you think that, if homeopathy did work, doctors would want to prescribe it ?
Although I suppose homeopathy proponents would say that it's all being covered up by the multi-national pharmaceuticals; or some other far-fetched conspiracy theory.
Edited by sstein on Friday 15th May 21:24
sstein said:
thinfourth2 said:
Maybe the idea behind this is enough to help the mind heal the body if the person to who it is administered belives it will work this could somehow help the mind and body heal. Yes it can't work on a chemical viewpoint but i feel that we are so much more then a bag of chemicals.
In science, it's not enough to have a feeling, thankfully.thinfourth2 said:
Yes what you quoted was people with closed minds to conventional medicine but to have a closed mind to alternative medicine is just as bad.
I don't have a closed mind, show me the evidence. You know, the independent, double blind tests that show that homeopathy can have an effect. Not 3rd party anecdotes, but properly carried out reproduceable, falsifiable experiments that show homeopathy has an effect greater than the placebo effect. There are none. Where is the independant peer-reviewed literature that homeopathy has an effect greater than a placebo effect ?I'm not closed minded, I'm just not gullible enough to believe what ever a woo-woo new age mystic tells me.
If someone is making a claim, like homeopathic practitioners are, the onus is on them to back up their claims. Why can't any of them do it ? And when you are claiming that water (H2O) has memory and is essentially a decision making concious entity, you better have some spectacular evidence to back up those claims, or people are going to call you on it - and rightly so.
I stand by what I said, fraudsters or idiots.
ETA: Don't you think that, if homeopathy did work, doctors would want to prescribe it ?
Although I suppose homeopathy proponents would say that [b]it's all being covered up by the multi-national pharmaceuticals[/]; or some other far-fetched conspiracy theory.
Edited by sstein on Friday 15th May 21:22
johnfm said:
sstein said:
thinfourth2 said:
Maybe the idea behind this is enough to help the mind heal the body if the person to who it is administered belives it will work this could somehow help the mind and body heal. Yes it can't work on a chemical viewpoint but i feel that we are so much more then a bag of chemicals.
In science, it's not enough to have a feeling, thankfully.thinfourth2 said:
Yes what you quoted was people with closed minds to conventional medicine but to have a closed mind to alternative medicine is just as bad.
I don't have a closed mind, show me the evidence. You know, the independent, double blind tests that show that homeopathy can have an effect. Not 3rd party anecdotes, but properly carried out reproduceable, falsifiable experiments that show homeopathy has an effect greater than the placebo effect. There are none. Where is the independant peer-reviewed literature that homeopathy has an effect greater than a placebo effect ?I'm not closed minded, I'm just not gullible enough to believe what ever a woo-woo new age mystic tells me.
If someone is making a claim, like homeopathic practitioners are, the onus is on them to back up their claims. Why can't any of them do it ? And when you are claiming that water (H2O) has memory and is essentially a decision making concious entity, you better have some spectacular evidence to back up those claims, or people are going to call you on it - and rightly so.
I stand by what I said, fraudsters or idiots.
ETA: Don't you think that, if homeopathy did work, doctors would want to prescribe it ?
Although I suppose homeopathy proponents would say that [b]it's all being covered up by the multi-national pharmaceuticals[/]; or some other far-fetched conspiracy theory.
Edited by sstein on Friday 15th May 21:22
We are talking about magic water here
woooooo-woooooo.
sstein said:
We are talking about magic water here
woooooo-woooooo.
If i sell some "magic water" to someone and they feel better when taking it.woooooo-woooooo.
Has the "magic water" worked?
Well the answer must be yes.
I agree the chemical science sayes it can't work but maybe there is something else going on that we don't yet understand
thinfourth2 said:
sstein said:
We are talking about magic water here
woooooo-woooooo.
Well the answer must be yes.woooooo-woooooo.
To look at it from another way, would you feel guilty charging inflated prices for that magic water knowing that it did nothing ?
-
Stuart
Edited by sstein on Friday 15th May 22:04
Edited by sstein on Friday 15th May 22:07
sstein said:
thinfourth2 said:
sstein said:
We are talking about magic water here
woooooo-woooooo.
Well the answer must be yes.woooooo-woooooo.
-
Stuart
Two totally different things
You don't have to belive in aspirin for it to work as that is chemistry
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