What are the requirements for a track car?
Discussion
I'm not talking about specific cars or what makes a car particularly quick or exciting, but the practicalities.
For example, I'd always planned to get a roll bar before doing more serious track stuff, but I hadn't stopped to consider an uprated seat and harness. Some people maintain that they are actually more important than roll protection.
So, what things do you reckon make a track car safer and easier to live with in the real world?
For example, I'd always planned to get a roll bar before doing more serious track stuff, but I hadn't stopped to consider an uprated seat and harness. Some people maintain that they are actually more important than roll protection.
So, what things do you reckon make a track car safer and easier to live with in the real world?
Good brake fluid
Good brake pads
Harnesses (fitted properly)
Possibly seats depending on what the car came with. (I'm happy with the recaros in my Evo. Could go for fixed buckets but I don't need to for trackdays. If I had 'flatter' seats with less side bolstering then I'd consider a set which would hold you in better.)
I wouldn't put a roll cage in a road car, as you would be killed instantly if your head made contact with it in a crash and you didn't have a helmet on. If you're talking about a track only car, then put a cage in and only drive it with a helmet on.
ETA, you posted while I was writing. Brakes clearly a good idea. Great minds eh?
Good brake pads
Harnesses (fitted properly)
Possibly seats depending on what the car came with. (I'm happy with the recaros in my Evo. Could go for fixed buckets but I don't need to for trackdays. If I had 'flatter' seats with less side bolstering then I'd consider a set which would hold you in better.)
I wouldn't put a roll cage in a road car, as you would be killed instantly if your head made contact with it in a crash and you didn't have a helmet on. If you're talking about a track only car, then put a cage in and only drive it with a helmet on.
ETA, you posted while I was writing. Brakes clearly a good idea. Great minds eh?
Edited by mrmr96 on Friday 15th May 15:51
Real world meaning the stuff that you actually make use of in a car that's regularly used on track, rather than the stuff that sounds good down the pub. 
Would definitely add adjustable suspension to that list, yes. Having got adjustable dampers on the current toy (and specifically ones which can be adjusted reasonably easily with the wheels in-situ) I find I run significantly stiffer settings on the track than I'd like to drive home with!
So, that's a good one. What else? Possibly a large enough boot to accomodate a few tools?
Would definitely add adjustable suspension to that list, yes. Having got adjustable dampers on the current toy (and specifically ones which can be adjusted reasonably easily with the wheels in-situ) I find I run significantly stiffer settings on the track than I'd like to drive home with!
So, that's a good one. What else? Possibly a large enough boot to accomodate a few tools?
IMO, and it's that, my personal opinion...as the first round of modifications, I'd do the following to a project car that will be a road-legal track toy (i.e. if you intend to drive it to and from track days):
- roll cage (weld-in ideally, although decent bolt-in ones would do the trick)
- new brakes (new OEM discs, calipers, braided brake hoses and road-race pads should be sufficient)
- suspension upgrade (coil-overs if you can stretch to it - you can soften it for road transit)
- bucket seats (anything that hasn't got a steel frame would do)
- 4-point harnesses from one of the major brands
- roll cage (weld-in ideally, although decent bolt-in ones would do the trick)
- new brakes (new OEM discs, calipers, braided brake hoses and road-race pads should be sufficient)
- suspension upgrade (coil-overs if you can stretch to it - you can soften it for road transit)
- bucket seats (anything that hasn't got a steel frame would do)
- 4-point harnesses from one of the major brands
Can someone ellaborate on the roll protection?
Firstly, any thoughts on decent roll bar versus full cage?
Secondly, can't you render a roll bar fairly safe with sensible positioning and a spot of padding? As someone considering an open car for a mixture of road and regular track use this one's really hanging on my mind.
Firstly, any thoughts on decent roll bar versus full cage?
Secondly, can't you render a roll bar fairly safe with sensible positioning and a spot of padding? As someone considering an open car for a mixture of road and regular track use this one's really hanging on my mind.
The rule about trying to keep car weight under a ton is a good one.
Make sure seat and belt mounting points are strong - on older cars there's a risk the seat will be ripped off its mounts in an impact.
Enough room to take a spare set of wheels (save the sticky tyres for the track)?
Brakes have to be first mod, though, since it's always the first thing on a normal road car to start underperforming. Uprated hoses/fluid and new pads did the trick for my Alfa.
Make sure seat and belt mounting points are strong - on older cars there's a risk the seat will be ripped off its mounts in an impact.
Enough room to take a spare set of wheels (save the sticky tyres for the track)?
Brakes have to be first mod, though, since it's always the first thing on a normal road car to start underperforming. Uprated hoses/fluid and new pads did the trick for my Alfa.
I've done 30-40 trackdays, and a few trips to the 'ring in my 205 since I bought it 5 years ago. Only thing I felt I had to upgrade was the brakes - uprated fluid, Mintex pads, and after about 5 trackdays the master cylinder started to feel ropey, so that was upgraded too.
I tried drilled and grooved discs, but they didn't seem any better so went back to standard. Never had any brake fade since.
Also got slightly track-friendly tyres when the time came to upgrade - Yoko A539s. They lasted very well (about 20k miles for the fronts, 30k for rears).
Other stuff I have only replaced when the original 20 year old parts were needing replacement. Shocks developed a leak, so they went and Billies went on. Steering rack creaked a bit, so replaced with a quick rack, air box assembly fell apart, so K&N went on.
Next mod will be upper and lower strut braces.
Never felt the need for harnesses or a roll cage tbh. Standard seat belt holds you in quite well. Roll cages add weight.
I tried drilled and grooved discs, but they didn't seem any better so went back to standard. Never had any brake fade since.
Also got slightly track-friendly tyres when the time came to upgrade - Yoko A539s. They lasted very well (about 20k miles for the fronts, 30k for rears).
Other stuff I have only replaced when the original 20 year old parts were needing replacement. Shocks developed a leak, so they went and Billies went on. Steering rack creaked a bit, so replaced with a quick rack, air box assembly fell apart, so K&N went on.
Next mod will be upper and lower strut braces.
Never felt the need for harnesses or a roll cage tbh. Standard seat belt holds you in quite well. Roll cages add weight.
Chris71 said:
HereBeMonsters said:
Never felt the need for harnesses or a roll cage tbh. Standard seat belt holds you in quite well. Roll cages add weight.
It's a bit different in an open car though - particularly in a Seven type machine without so much as a door between you and the elements.Anyone ever tried those seat-belt lock things? I have a friend who swears by them, but I think they're a bit of a gimmick.
Remember a track day is not racing, so if you end up upside down, you've done something very stupid indeed.
All my own opinion:
brakes
reduce weight if practical
adjustable suspension is a luxury but a nice one
roll cage is the ideal in terms of safety but they do impose restrictions:
-getting in the way in everyday driving
-in my opinion if you have a roll cage you really need to always wear a proper harness. if there is any way your head can contact one of the bars in a crash (not hard to do with normal seatbelts) then you will not fare well.
and i believe the most important mod of all is to improve the squashy thing sat in the drivers seat. Even basic driver instruction will give a lot of satisfaction on the track and also make you more aware of how to look after the mods on your car.
brakes
reduce weight if practical
adjustable suspension is a luxury but a nice one
roll cage is the ideal in terms of safety but they do impose restrictions:
-getting in the way in everyday driving
-in my opinion if you have a roll cage you really need to always wear a proper harness. if there is any way your head can contact one of the bars in a crash (not hard to do with normal seatbelts) then you will not fare well.
and i believe the most important mod of all is to improve the squashy thing sat in the drivers seat. Even basic driver instruction will give a lot of satisfaction on the track and also make you more aware of how to look after the mods on your car.
speedychrissie said:
and i believe the most important mod of all is to improve the squashy thing sat in the drivers seat. Even basic driver instruction will give a lot of satisfaction on the track and also make you more aware of how to look after the mods on your car.
Totally agree on that. I had at least one session of instruction on every track day where it was offered. Obviously you don't time your laps, but I know my times were tumbling after every session. On most tracks now the only things that pass me are the Caterfields. HereBeMonsters said:
Remember a track day is not racing, so if you end up upside down, you've done something very stupid indeed.
I must admit I can't say I've ever seen a car go over on a track day, but I did once get an Impreza on two wheels coming sideways off a skid pan and onto dry tarmac! I'm led to believe sliding across the track and then hitting the gravel can have a similar effect - you dig in and then you go over. Speaking to the guys at the Debden sprint last weekend they said not one but two people had rolled at North Weald the previous weekend, so it does happen.I don't intend to ever have an accident and I think I'm reasonably sensible on track, but I guess if you're going to spend virtually all your time at the limit then risks do mount up compared to even quite adventurous road use.
In the RingShed (which never came to fruition) I installed (well erm, came about halfway installing) a Safety Devices rear (half) cage while leaving the headlining, door trims, A-pillar covers etc. unaffected. Seat was std, but TBH unlike roll bars for TVRs that tend to be immediately next to or behind your head, with this set up I have a hard time imagining how one could hit the roll bar in a crash. I'd say if the likes of Porsche (GT3RS) and Renault (R26R) are happy to sell similar set ups as OE, this must be a sensible compromise for a primarily road going, track prepared car?
If your seat/harness locate you properly, you don't need to brace your body and use your arms and legs to hold you in position. This makes it much less tiring, and makes it much easier to sense the small changes in feedback through the controls that tell you what the car is doing.
In my mind the first priority is safety, but after that the most important thing is the car/driver interface.
In my mind the first priority is safety, but after that the most important thing is the car/driver interface.
speedychrissie said:
All my own opinion:
brakes
reduce weight if practical
adjustable suspension is a luxury but a nice one
roll cage is the ideal in terms of safety but they do impose restrictions:
-getting in the way in everyday driving
-in my opinion if you have a roll cage you really need to always wear a proper harness. if there is any way your head can contact one of the bars in a crash (not hard to do with normal seatbelts) then you will not fare well.
and i believe the most important mod of all is to improve the squashy thing sat in the drivers seat. Even basic driver instruction will give a lot of satisfaction on the track and also make you more aware of how to look after the mods on your car.
quite right, but i'd say if you have a roll cage, you have to wear harnesses, you have to have a bucket seat if using harnesses due to chance of seat collapsing and you have to 100% waer a helmet.brakes
reduce weight if practical
adjustable suspension is a luxury but a nice one
roll cage is the ideal in terms of safety but they do impose restrictions:
-getting in the way in everyday driving
-in my opinion if you have a roll cage you really need to always wear a proper harness. if there is any way your head can contact one of the bars in a crash (not hard to do with normal seatbelts) then you will not fare well.
and i believe the most important mod of all is to improve the squashy thing sat in the drivers seat. Even basic driver instruction will give a lot of satisfaction on the track and also make you more aware of how to look after the mods on your car.
Biggest problem insurance comapnies have with roll cages is the amount of people killed by hitting therir head on the cage, mad as it sounds the afety function can kill too.
I still can't get my head around the problem with roll cages. Don't many race seats virtually wrap around your head anyway? And as mentioned above cars like the 911 GT3 and Megane R26R are sold to the public with cages in. If you think about where you locate one it must be possible to place it somewhere safe, but still out of reach of your head (assuming you're properly located by a full harness).
It is true to say that your limbs stretch and flex much further in an accident than they normally would, so arms and legs can reach parts of the car they'd never normally get to. However that's limbs - can't help feeling you'd be in trouble anyway if your neck did the same thing.
So it's an interesting one; could an open car really be safer without a roll bar?
It is true to say that your limbs stretch and flex much further in an accident than they normally would, so arms and legs can reach parts of the car they'd never normally get to. However that's limbs - can't help feeling you'd be in trouble anyway if your neck did the same thing.
So it's an interesting one; could an open car really be safer without a roll bar?
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