1330 A+ Running in opinions please
Discussion
Hi All
As the title sugests, I'm building a 1330A+ as follows,
Omeaga pistons
1:1.5 Full roller rockers
swiftune SW5 cam
steel flywheel
Cooper S crank damper
VMax Scart ported Head 35.7mm/29mm
I have read many things about bedding in of the cam, running the car at 2000RPM for 20 mins on initial start up.
what type of oil to run i.e. synthetic or non
Any thoughts would be greatfully recieved.
Regards
OrangeD
As the title sugests, I'm building a 1330A+ as follows,
Omeaga pistons
1:1.5 Full roller rockers
swiftune SW5 cam
steel flywheel
Cooper S crank damper
VMax Scart ported Head 35.7mm/29mm
I have read many things about bedding in of the cam, running the car at 2000RPM for 20 mins on initial start up.
what type of oil to run i.e. synthetic or non
Any thoughts would be greatfully recieved.
Regards
OrangeD
In an ideal world it's suggested that you run the car for 10-20mins at about 2,000rpm to bed the cam in, but this can be quite difficult when the timing etc isn't spot on.
I ran my 1330 on normal oil for the first 500 miles, avoided full throttle and gradually built up to using the full rev range. Since 500 miles it's been running fully synthetic and runs beautifully, using no oil (other than loosing a bit out of the gearbox linkage!).
It all depends on the tolerances of the build though. I've had friends with engines fully built from reputable companies that don't like running fully synthetic.
Did you build the engine? If not, take the advcie of the builder as they should have the best idea of how to run it .
I ran my 1330 on normal oil for the first 500 miles, avoided full throttle and gradually built up to using the full rev range. Since 500 miles it's been running fully synthetic and runs beautifully, using no oil (other than loosing a bit out of the gearbox linkage!).
It all depends on the tolerances of the build though. I've had friends with engines fully built from reputable companies that don't like running fully synthetic.
Did you build the engine? If not, take the advcie of the builder as they should have the best idea of how to run it .
Don't run your A-series on synthetic if you value a nice clean garage floor or driveway.
It will find every single opportunity to exit - not just the gearbox linkage input seal - that is just the pre-cursor.
Search on this forum - oils have been very heavily discussed. To look after your gearbox, try and get as high zinc content as possible. Synthetic and even semi-syths are bit of No-no. Trust me from experience - they will eventually piss out as the oil seal designs date from a period pre-synthetic oil. I race on very good quality mineral (Valvoline Racing 20w 50) and many on here have used the Millers mineral to good effect.
For running in (first 500-1000 miles) use a very basic mineral (Api SF or lower) - too much protection and the rings just won't bed-in.
It will find every single opportunity to exit - not just the gearbox linkage input seal - that is just the pre-cursor.
Search on this forum - oils have been very heavily discussed. To look after your gearbox, try and get as high zinc content as possible. Synthetic and even semi-syths are bit of No-no. Trust me from experience - they will eventually piss out as the oil seal designs date from a period pre-synthetic oil. I race on very good quality mineral (Valvoline Racing 20w 50) and many on here have used the Millers mineral to good effect.
For running in (first 500-1000 miles) use a very basic mineral (Api SF or lower) - too much protection and the rings just won't bed-in.
Edited by FWDRacer on Monday 18th May 08:54
FWDRacer said:
Don't run your A-series on synthetic if you value a nice clean garage floor or driveway.
It will find every single opportunity to exit - not just the gearbox linkage input seal - that is just the pre-cursor.
Search on this forum - oils have been very heavily discussed. To look after your gearbox, try and get as high zinc content as possible. Synthetic and even semi-syths are bit of No-no. Trust me from experience - they will eventually piss out as the oil seal designs date from a period pre-synthetic oil. I race on very good quality mineral (Valvoline Racing 20w 50) and many on here have used the Millers mineral to good effect.
For running in (first 500-1000 miles) use a very basic mineral (Api SF or lower) - too much protection and the rings just won't bed-in.
This shows how build specific oils are to mini engines. As FWD says most race engines use mineral oil. I was just going from my experience of my 1330.It will find every single opportunity to exit - not just the gearbox linkage input seal - that is just the pre-cursor.
Search on this forum - oils have been very heavily discussed. To look after your gearbox, try and get as high zinc content as possible. Synthetic and even semi-syths are bit of No-no. Trust me from experience - they will eventually piss out as the oil seal designs date from a period pre-synthetic oil. I race on very good quality mineral (Valvoline Racing 20w 50) and many on here have used the Millers mineral to good effect.
For running in (first 500-1000 miles) use a very basic mineral (Api SF or lower) - too much protection and the rings just won't bed-in.
Edited by FWDRacer on Monday 18th May 08:54
It is used predominantly on the road, but with the occasional track day, spending up to 3 months sitting idle then started up, warmed through and given a good caning (c.100 miles each time, generally at 4-6,500rpm). When parked up after a run it loses a few drops of oil from the gearbox linkage and that's it - I don't think that I've ever seen a road mini that's any drier than that. I haven't touched the engine or box since it was built about 35,000 miles ago, other than replacing a valve when the K&N filter bracket fell apart and the [welded on] retaining nut was ingested...
I run in using a Morris Oils Multivis 15w50 or Duckhams 20w50, then after 250 to 400 miles I change to Valvoline Racing 20w50 which I have always used for competition.
We also have a 1061 cc 1986 Mini which we run on Duckhams 20w50 all the time.
As FWD says, never run a Mini on a synthetic oil. It just doesn't suit the gearbox, apart from the seals. Ideally the box should run an 80 grade EP gear oil as it's basically just an old BMC 'box modified to sit under the engine, but 20w50 mineral is the best option.
I did once try a semi-synthetic for one rally. It blew the camshaft bearings, bits of which went through the SC, CR gearbox and the oil pump. An expensive lesson. An old friend of mine, now passed away but who was an 'old school' engine specialist, described the synthetic as 'weasel piss' and said what did I expect if I ran my engine to 7400 rpm with weasel piss in the sump!
We also have a 1061 cc 1986 Mini which we run on Duckhams 20w50 all the time.
As FWD says, never run a Mini on a synthetic oil. It just doesn't suit the gearbox, apart from the seals. Ideally the box should run an 80 grade EP gear oil as it's basically just an old BMC 'box modified to sit under the engine, but 20w50 mineral is the best option.
I did once try a semi-synthetic for one rally. It blew the camshaft bearings, bits of which went through the SC, CR gearbox and the oil pump. An expensive lesson. An old friend of mine, now passed away but who was an 'old school' engine specialist, described the synthetic as 'weasel piss' and said what did I expect if I ran my engine to 7400 rpm with weasel piss in the sump!
Strange, I ran mine on fully synth motorbike oil (gearboxes in the sump...spot the connection) and never lost a drop and experienced significantly less wear than similar engines on mineral / semi.
Opinions are like a
holes though....everybody has one!
I thinks its fair to say that modern synthetics are leagues ahead of where they were a few years back.
Opinions are like a
holes though....everybody has one!I thinks its fair to say that modern synthetics are leagues ahead of where they were a few years back.
dan
most bike gearboxes are dog rather than syncro ring though!
this is where the problem lies, a bulk ring requires friction to slow the gear down so that the syncro can engage the gear - run oil thats too thin, or slippy and the baulk ring simply cannot do its job, it then wears its self and the cone on the gear out, which in turn nibs the syncro teeth of the gear as the frustrated user rams the car into gear!
i would agree that in a top end motor with a dog box the correct choice of synthetic oil probably would work ok, but all the irish rally lads i know (inc a couple running big 1460 kad motors and historic five porters) all choose to use a quality 20-50 (millers notmaly, now valvoline is getting hard to get). i dont know of a single mini racer that uses synthetic oil.
i think the biggest pointer to the problems of synthetic in mini syncro boxes is that when the 'opieoilman' was touting for business on here a couple of years ago claiming that his synthetic oil was the best thing ever for minis i offered him a simple offer - run my race car on his choice of sythetic oil for a few races, any gearbox problems (a sc syncro) to be fixed at his expense. oddly he didnt think this was a worthy advert for his business and vanished!.
most bike gearboxes are dog rather than syncro ring though!
this is where the problem lies, a bulk ring requires friction to slow the gear down so that the syncro can engage the gear - run oil thats too thin, or slippy and the baulk ring simply cannot do its job, it then wears its self and the cone on the gear out, which in turn nibs the syncro teeth of the gear as the frustrated user rams the car into gear!
i would agree that in a top end motor with a dog box the correct choice of synthetic oil probably would work ok, but all the irish rally lads i know (inc a couple running big 1460 kad motors and historic five porters) all choose to use a quality 20-50 (millers notmaly, now valvoline is getting hard to get). i dont know of a single mini racer that uses synthetic oil.
i think the biggest pointer to the problems of synthetic in mini syncro boxes is that when the 'opieoilman' was touting for business on here a couple of years ago claiming that his synthetic oil was the best thing ever for minis i offered him a simple offer - run my race car on his choice of sythetic oil for a few races, any gearbox problems (a sc syncro) to be fixed at his expense. oddly he didnt think this was a worthy advert for his business and vanished!.
True enough, apologies if my post came over a little facetious
When I ran synchro boxes I did find the change to be poor on synth's designed for cars, but by the same token I wouldn't run 15 grands worth of engine and gearbox on mineral oil - just my preference.
I did lots of research when I was building mine, and discovered why so many people (my brother included in the late 80's and early 90's) rate valvoline racing so highly - it has the highest zinc content of just about any car oil.
My personal experience found that castrol R4 superbike oil worked fantastically well with both synchro and dog boxes, although I would add that being an oil designed for a wet clutch it has less friction reducing additives than regular car oils. As I did relatively few miles between replacing by shells and mains that was never a concern for me. You need a carefully built engine to use it though, its runny like water, but it smells beautiful.
My brother still runs bike oil in his 190hp kad car now, sadly my mini made way for rear drive enjoyment
In my opinion, the old fasioned view that synthetic oil is no good for your car needs reviewing. I did an awful lot of miles with my engine with no problems at all other than a snapped tooth on 3rd gear. Wear rate was phenomenal considering the power and mileage I did.
When I ran synchro boxes I did find the change to be poor on synth's designed for cars, but by the same token I wouldn't run 15 grands worth of engine and gearbox on mineral oil - just my preference.
I did lots of research when I was building mine, and discovered why so many people (my brother included in the late 80's and early 90's) rate valvoline racing so highly - it has the highest zinc content of just about any car oil.
My personal experience found that castrol R4 superbike oil worked fantastically well with both synchro and dog boxes, although I would add that being an oil designed for a wet clutch it has less friction reducing additives than regular car oils. As I did relatively few miles between replacing by shells and mains that was never a concern for me. You need a carefully built engine to use it though, its runny like water, but it smells beautiful.
My brother still runs bike oil in his 190hp kad car now, sadly my mini made way for rear drive enjoyment
In my opinion, the old fasioned view that synthetic oil is no good for your car needs reviewing. I did an awful lot of miles with my engine with no problems at all other than a snapped tooth on 3rd gear. Wear rate was phenomenal considering the power and mileage I did.
dan, no worries, i knew where you where comming from.
r40 is good oil as well, bar the stink and the difficulty in getting it now. a mate swears by it and we have stripped some comp engines of his that have been perfect after some serious abuse!
the biggest problem with r40 is that its nasty stuff and must be used with care - if you get it on your skin it can cause all sorts of problems - im allergic to it - nasty stuff!!!
r40 is good oil as well, bar the stink and the difficulty in getting it now. a mate swears by it and we have stripped some comp engines of his that have been perfect after some serious abuse!
the biggest problem with r40 is that its nasty stuff and must be used with care - if you get it on your skin it can cause all sorts of problems - im allergic to it - nasty stuff!!!
Some very wise words in posts above.
If you want a bit of summertime fun, and own a petrol lawn mower.
Put a small teaspoon full of Castrol R40 into the petrol tank and
stir well. Then proceed to cut said lawn. You won't get the smell
of freshly cut grass though...
Works best with really old lawnmowers, Suffolk Punch's et al.
If you want a bit of summertime fun, and own a petrol lawn mower.
Put a small teaspoon full of Castrol R40 into the petrol tank and
stir well. Then proceed to cut said lawn. You won't get the smell
of freshly cut grass though...
Works best with really old lawnmowers, Suffolk Punch's et al.
rufusruffcutt said:
Some very wise words in posts above.
If you want a bit of summertime fun, and own a petrol lawn mower.
Put a small teaspoon full of Castrol R40 into the petrol tank and
stir well. Then proceed to cut said lawn. You won't get the smell
of freshly cut grass though...
Works best with really old lawnmowers, Suffolk Punch's et al.
many years ago i did this with a big cricket type self propelled mower we had for our field, it smelt that good i tipped some more in, then it overheated and nipped the valve in the block and blew up.If you want a bit of summertime fun, and own a petrol lawn mower.
Put a small teaspoon full of Castrol R40 into the petrol tank and
stir well. Then proceed to cut said lawn. You won't get the smell
of freshly cut grass though...
Works best with really old lawnmowers, Suffolk Punch's et al.
i had some explaining to do to my parents.............
it cost a fortune to repair................................
guru_1071 said:
rufusruffcutt said:
Some very wise words in posts above.
If you want a bit of summertime fun, and own a petrol lawn mower.
Put a small teaspoon full of Castrol R40 into the petrol tank and
stir well. Then proceed to cut said lawn. You won't get the smell
of freshly cut grass though...
Works best with really old lawnmowers, Suffolk Punch's et al.
many years ago i did this with a big cricket type self propelled mower we had for our field, it smelt that good i tipped some more in, then it overheated and nipped the valve in the block and blew up.If you want a bit of summertime fun, and own a petrol lawn mower.
Put a small teaspoon full of Castrol R40 into the petrol tank and
stir well. Then proceed to cut said lawn. You won't get the smell
of freshly cut grass though...
Works best with really old lawnmowers, Suffolk Punch's et al.
i had some explaining to do to my parents.............
it cost a fortune to repair................................
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