30mph repeaters

[puggit]

One for the technical experts - Vastern Road in Reading now has 30mph repeater signs which share the sign with camera warnings.

In the back of my mind (and Deltaf's!) we think 30 mph repeaters aren't legal.

Any ideas?

[FunkyNige]

If there aren't streetlights on the road, 30mph repeaters are needed to enforce a 30mph limit.

Here (the DfT site) explains it properly (well I hope it does, my connection's playing up).

[puggit]

There are frequent street lights (just checked photos) - which is why the signs might be a problem.

[haggishead]

The DoT site is definitely correct - the Traffic SIgns Regs 1994 not only don't recommend 30 mph repeaters, they expressly forbid them... so any local authority putting up 30 miles per hour signs would be acting illegally.

The basic rule is "If the road is lit then the speed limit is 30, unless there are repeater signs telling you it's higher... if the road is unlit, then the NSL applies unless there are repeater signs telling you it's lower."

Yes it's a basic rule - I know there are exceptions, but that's more or less how it is.

[5ltr-chim]

30 repeaters are indeed illegal when street lighting complies with regs.

BUT

A speed camera warning sign which just happens to also remind you of the 30 limit is legal - It took them over a year to get approval for it.

A TEMPORARY warning sign to inform you of a change to a new limit is acceptable.

*Temporary = 6 months MAX! - this applies to all temp signs inc "new roundabout ahead" etc..

Hope that helps.

[puggit]

Mark - any chance you can dig up the relevant legal stuff?

[haggishead]

Correct!

Don't start me on the legalities of road signs... it's a lot harder than it looks!

I remember a lad when I worked for the Council asking where he could order the yellow line paint from - he'd been asked to change some in his area so was going to get it done... I gently pointed out the need for this wee thing called a Traffic Regulation Order that he might like to have a wee think about.

[/hijack] sorry

[haggishead]

puggit said:

Mark - any chance you can dig up the relevant legal stuff?

Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 1994 - the section is on the DfT site there in the link... Direction 10(2(a))

>> Edited by haggishead on Sunday 30th November 22:18

[puggit]

OK - are we talking about diagram 880? (I can't find a ruddy pic right now!).

In which case the site www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_508002.pdf says:

dft site said:

Diagram 880: New sign warning of a speed camera ahead with a reminder of a 30 mph speed limit. This sign may only be used in conjunction with an actual speed camera (no further than 1 kilometre from the sign) and only on a street lit road with a 30 mph speed limit.

So... can I ask them to remove the repeater signs each time the van leaves?

[haggishead]

that's not a repeater sign - repeater signs are the tiny 30mph or 40 mph signs fixed to every second lamp post or whatever - like a smaller version of the sign at the start of the limit.

The sign you are talking about is type approved for use in advance of speed cameras - I doubt that they have to take it down if the camera isn't there... don't have a TSRGD on me at the moment though, so can't say...

[jeffreyarcher]

Sign 880, permitted.



Sign 670, prohibited, when used as a repeater on lit 30 MPH roads.

haggishead said:

that's not a repeater sign - repeater signs are the tiny 30mph or 40 mph signs fixed to every second lamp post or whatever - like a smaller version of the sign at the start of the limit.

The size is irrelevent to whether it is a repeater sign or not. All that changes is the recommended size.

Whether the provision of prohibited repeaters will help you defend a speeding charge is amother matter. The ABD think that it does, but I'm not so sure. The problem is the wording of the law.
Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, Section 85
(4) Where no system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart is provided on a road, but a limit of speed is to be observed on the road, a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs as are mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2) above.
The reference to the lights is not intended to be a catch-all get out for the authorities to ignore the TSRGDs where there are street lights; it's a reference to the fact that you don't need signs at all. However, the wording appears to do just that. If you've been caught, I'm not saying that you shouldn't try it; just that success is uncertain.

As far as I can see, you'd have to run it on the basis of sub-section 2 (assuming that it's not a trunk road) on it's own.
(2) In the case of any road which is not a trunk road, it shall be the duty of the local authority -
(a) to erect and maintain the prescribed traffic signs in such positions as may be requisite in order to give effect to general or other directions given by the Secretary of State for the purpose mentioned in subsection (1) above, and
(b) to alter or remove traffic signs as may be requisite in order to give effect to such directions, either in consequence of the making of an order by the Secretary of State or otherwise.

Or sub-section 1 if it is (a trunk road).
(1) For the purpose of securing that adequate guidance is given to drivers of motor vehicles as to whether any, and if so what, limit of speed is to be observed on any road, it shall be the duty of the Secretary of State, in the case of a trunk road, to erect and maintain the prescribed traffic signs in such positions as may be requisite for that purpose.

>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Monday 1st December 02:12

[puggit]

Thanks JA.
Vastern Road is not a trunk road - so I guess the only action we can take is trying to get them to remove the signs when the van isn't there

[streaky]

haggishead said:

... The sign you are talking about is type approved for use in advance of speed cameras - I doubt that they have to take it down if the camera isn't there... don't have a TSRGD on me at the moment though, so can't say...

dft site said:

Diagram 880: New sign warning of a speed camera ahead with a reminder of a 30 mph speed limit. This sign may only be used in conjunction with an actual speed camera (no further than 1 kilometre from the sign) and only on a street lit road with a 30 mph speed limit.

I would suggest that the phrases "may only be used" (giving exclusive permission) and "in conjunction with an actual speed camera" (indicating the circumstances) are the operative ones here that indicate the signs must be removed when there is no camera there.

puggit and deltaf ... go for it!

Streaky

[icamm]

Have you checked the distance between lampposts? As it says in the reg's a 30mph limit is defined by the lampposts being not more than 200 yards apart. If the lampposts are further apart than this then repeater signs are required.

[puggit]

Haven't measured them but the lampposts appear closely spaced

[haggishead]

WITHIN the speed limit at regular intervals, if the speed limit isn't 30 mph on a lit road, or NSL on an unlit road. Normal practice is that they are smaller (300mm as opposed to 450, 600 or 750 mm) than the signs at the END of the limit (saves a fortune in signmaking costs!)

Dia 880 isn't really a "repeater" - because it's not repeated!

Have to admit I didn't really read the first post properly though - it was nothing to do with "repeaters" in the sense normally used - sorry for any confusion.

[5ltr-chim]

From what I remember sign 880 can only be used a certain distance from the camera. - It's something like 100M unless a bend then some extra allowance made. - Worth checking exact distances and then going along with your measuring wheel when he's there.

That'll get him worried...

OK just checked - Camera needs to be within 1KM - and no Camera no sign - so he must take signs with him! - best tell him when you see him about to leave...

>> Edited by 5ltr-chim on Monday 1st December 22:21

[jeffreyarcher]

haggishead said:

Yes it's a basic rule - I know there are exceptions, but that's more or less how it is.

Give us a clue, I can only think of three.
1) Motorways.
2) 20 MPH zones (as opposed to limits).
3) 30 MPH limits applied by an order erroneously by the council, instead of beimg a 'restricted' road.[*]
[*] The latest issue of the TSRGDs (2002) does away with this distinction.

[haggishead]

jeffreyarcher said:

Give us a clue, I can only think of three. 1) Motorways. 2) 20 MPH zones (as opposed to limits). 3) 30 MPH limits applied by an order erroneously by the council, instead of beimg a 'restricted' road.[*] [*] The latest issue of the TSRGDs (2002) does away with this distinction.

I think that's about it now. Used to be very complicated under the old (pre-1984) Road Traffic Regulation Act - a principal road was NSL whether lit or not, and you had to make an order to make it 30... tolled crossings were NSL (because they are effectively privately-owned special roads) and therefore not covered as "restricted roads" even if lit. Those anomalies were taken out of the 1984 Road Traffic Regulation Act and the 1984 TSRGD if I recall...

so a friend told me...

[puggit]

There are definitely no fixed sites on the A329 within 1km of the sign (or to the best of my knowledge on any road within a 1km radius).

OK - so how do I get the signs pulled down when the van isn't there?

Do you think they've erected the small blue 'police speed enforcment area' signs because they know the 880 signs are dodgy? These are similar to the signs that TrafPol put out saying "Police SLOW"