Discussion
Hi Everyone,
This is my first post. I've been an avid reader of the PH forums for a long time now, today I decided it was time to stop lurking in the background and get involved!
I own an Yellow CanAm with a 396ci 550BHP AmSpeed engine (yes, I've heard all the hairdresser comments!). It's a great car but my one gripe is the awful carb setup. When I bought the car it ran way too rich (even for an Ultima), I dropped the jets down a couple of sizes sizes, that fixed the original issues but now it stalls under heavy breaking and runs like a dog when cold (no choke) etc etc ... great.
So anyway, the car's going for an engine overhaul next week (to find the missing bits of the shoddy taiwanese cast cam chain sprocket AS fitted!) and at the same time I want to switch to EFI. Does anyone have any recommendations? I'm an mechatronics engineer and fairly capable but don't want to go down the MegaSquirt route, I have enough projects at work! Any suggested setups, manufacturers, injector sizes, etc greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
CanAmJay
This is my first post. I've been an avid reader of the PH forums for a long time now, today I decided it was time to stop lurking in the background and get involved!
I own an Yellow CanAm with a 396ci 550BHP AmSpeed engine (yes, I've heard all the hairdresser comments!). It's a great car but my one gripe is the awful carb setup. When I bought the car it ran way too rich (even for an Ultima), I dropped the jets down a couple of sizes sizes, that fixed the original issues but now it stalls under heavy breaking and runs like a dog when cold (no choke) etc etc ... great.
So anyway, the car's going for an engine overhaul next week (to find the missing bits of the shoddy taiwanese cast cam chain sprocket AS fitted!) and at the same time I want to switch to EFI. Does anyone have any recommendations? I'm an mechatronics engineer and fairly capable but don't want to go down the MegaSquirt route, I have enough projects at work! Any suggested setups, manufacturers, injector sizes, etc greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
CanAmJay
DTA is very nice and I hear good reports for emerald and you can look at Omex as well but it's getting more complex then the former 2. Motec is good but very costly and OTT imo. You'll be up and running in no time with the DTA and the software is very friendly. When I buy it'll be a choice of DTA or Omex with DTA being my favourite at the moment.
For low-end response and the most accurate results when using a wilder cam profile, go with individual T/B's and any ECU previously mentioned.
If the cam is not too wild then a T/B-plenum-manifold set up should be acceptable. (Holley commander system or similar)
Once you start to meter the fuel accurately the manifold will show its own weak distribution areas, usually around the low-end/off cam/light throttle point (in a N/A install).
The rich carb set-up masks some of these issues and also sometimes provides a buffer against detonation.......for a brief period, before the borewash and carbon build-up cause further problems!
Its a bit more time consuming and expensive to go the individual route but will give more driveable all-round results for a road/race car.
See Jenvey for details, 48-50mm ITB's should be fine.
DTA sell Jenvey's and their own ECU's too.
I recently bought a downdraught manifold (from the states) to do a very similar thing on a revvy 377 SBC.
Also, stock-size 14mm injectors can be sourced in matched sets from 30-70lb flow rates at reasonable money.
If the cam is not too wild then a T/B-plenum-manifold set up should be acceptable. (Holley commander system or similar)
Once you start to meter the fuel accurately the manifold will show its own weak distribution areas, usually around the low-end/off cam/light throttle point (in a N/A install).
The rich carb set-up masks some of these issues and also sometimes provides a buffer against detonation.......for a brief period, before the borewash and carbon build-up cause further problems!
Its a bit more time consuming and expensive to go the individual route but will give more driveable all-round results for a road/race car.
See Jenvey for details, 48-50mm ITB's should be fine.
DTA sell Jenvey's and their own ECU's too.
I recently bought a downdraught manifold (from the states) to do a very similar thing on a revvy 377 SBC.
Also, stock-size 14mm injectors can be sourced in matched sets from 30-70lb flow rates at reasonable money.
The problems you list are pretty much all carb related.
To set a carb up requires a real expert. I had to have mine done on the engine when it was built in the USA, but it starts easy, runs nice from cold, and doesnt stall under any sort of heavy braking, in short those with bad experience I think may just not have had things set up quite right. My old engine/carb had these problems, and no one I took it to could sort it out - no one.
To set a carb up requires a real expert. I had to have mine done on the engine when it was built in the USA, but it starts easy, runs nice from cold, and doesnt stall under any sort of heavy braking, in short those with bad experience I think may just not have had things set up quite right. My old engine/carb had these problems, and no one I took it to could sort it out - no one.
Edited by Wilder on Sunday 24th May 00:29
^ Would agree also, the US carb guys can get them very close if you provide them with sufficient info on your motor,installation etc.....good work is not cheap though. Most seem to agree that for a road-race set-up, specialist floats and bowls are required and almost any off the shelf carb will need to be refined after production. Their mods help to improve the fuelling when G becomes a big factor.
You have to balance your end requirements between all out power and driving manners. The 'cammy' higher HP motor will be more difficult to set up for good street manners on a single carb.
If you want genuine big HP and street manners, without forced induction, then build a larger capacity motor around a mild cam, keep the revs down and have a very good carb guy spec the induction.
Reliable, high revving V8's need some time and money, £15-20k min, if you want efi!
In the old school the best carb guys didn't carry lots of spares, just lots of small diameter wire, a large box of wire drills, springs and plenty of silver solder/epoxy.
You have to balance your end requirements between all out power and driving manners. The 'cammy' higher HP motor will be more difficult to set up for good street manners on a single carb.
If you want genuine big HP and street manners, without forced induction, then build a larger capacity motor around a mild cam, keep the revs down and have a very good carb guy spec the induction.
Reliable, high revving V8's need some time and money, £15-20k min, if you want efi!
In the old school the best carb guys didn't carry lots of spares, just lots of small diameter wire, a large box of wire drills, springs and plenty of silver solder/epoxy.
Wow, thanks for the quick responses. I agree that a carb set up properly can be nearly perfect (for a tuned analogue system), I think one of the problems is that I have a prototype carb that is essentially an american modified chinese carb, tuning a holly would be a different story.
I think I’ll go down the individual T/B route, thanks for the advice. Having looked at the ECU’s suggested the DTA and the OMEX look great, I’d been looking at much more mainstream solutions so thanks for the lead. I wonder what processor they use in the ECU’s? It would make most sense to put it all in an FPGA, we develop very similar kinds of control systems at work.
Re the chain sprocket: When I first received the car it was due an oil change. The guy had warned me that when I removed the magnetic drain plug I might find some metal deposits, as this had occurred when he change the oil. He said that he had spoken to AS and they had said that as the engine settles in small pieces of metal get knocked off the engine.
Anyway, I changed the oil and 4 or 5 not-so-small bits of metal came out with the drain plug. I decided to flush the engine with oil and another 10 or so came out. On careful examination they were all identical, just some a little more ‘chewed’ than others … ouch. I realised that they were teeth and called AS. They were quite upset about the whole thing, apparently it has happened on a few Ultimas but not when they put the identical engine in other cars.
I can only assume it’s something to do with dampening and that the engine/chain resonates, knocking the end of the teeth off. The engine is under 4 years old and covered 7000 miles. Frank – I think yours should be ok, they said they switched from a cast sprocket to one machined from billet when they realised about the problem.
Thanks again for all the words of wisdom. It's good to finally be involved.
I think I’ll go down the individual T/B route, thanks for the advice. Having looked at the ECU’s suggested the DTA and the OMEX look great, I’d been looking at much more mainstream solutions so thanks for the lead. I wonder what processor they use in the ECU’s? It would make most sense to put it all in an FPGA, we develop very similar kinds of control systems at work.
Re the chain sprocket: When I first received the car it was due an oil change. The guy had warned me that when I removed the magnetic drain plug I might find some metal deposits, as this had occurred when he change the oil. He said that he had spoken to AS and they had said that as the engine settles in small pieces of metal get knocked off the engine.
Anyway, I changed the oil and 4 or 5 not-so-small bits of metal came out with the drain plug. I decided to flush the engine with oil and another 10 or so came out. On careful examination they were all identical, just some a little more ‘chewed’ than others … ouch. I realised that they were teeth and called AS. They were quite upset about the whole thing, apparently it has happened on a few Ultimas but not when they put the identical engine in other cars.
I can only assume it’s something to do with dampening and that the engine/chain resonates, knocking the end of the teeth off. The engine is under 4 years old and covered 7000 miles. Frank – I think yours should be ok, they said they switched from a cast sprocket to one machined from billet when they realised about the problem.
Thanks again for all the words of wisdom. It's good to finally be involved.
Those teeth chip off due to wear.
Cast is quite brittle and will only stand hammering for a short period.
Solid Roller-Cam installations will find any weakness that's in their way!
Cheap balancers dont help either, stick with ATI, their lightweight race ones for a revvy endurance motor, part 917410 seems a good choice for an Ultima fit, not cheap but well worth it. The Nascar engines use ATI.
Cast is quite brittle and will only stand hammering for a short period.
Solid Roller-Cam installations will find any weakness that's in their way!
Cheap balancers dont help either, stick with ATI, their lightweight race ones for a revvy endurance motor, part 917410 seems a good choice for an Ultima fit, not cheap but well worth it. The Nascar engines use ATI.
Edited by 738 driver on Tuesday 26th May 10:28
I have a Kinsler TB set up run through an Accel DFI. I was talking to a local EFI guru (who just set up my CanAm) about an EFI install on my Pantera. He recommends and uses the DTA and said it was equivalent to MOTEC, but he could do a full install using a DTA for the cost of the MOTEC ECU.
I've tested many systems on the market. AEM, Motec, Haltech, hestech, DTA, Map ECU etc... and all I can say is: Have a look at Autronic SM4. It's incredible capable and most cars runs fantastic with Autronic without massive time on tuning. Just set timing and fuel and most often you don't have to fiddle with warm up etc etc. All those functions are in the system but the mathematics "behind the scene" are so good that it's almost magic how good the system are. Other systems I have used doesn't come close to Autronic when it comes to easy and quick basic adjustments.
If you after your car is up and running feel that you want to dive into advanced functions you can dive as deep as you like with autronic. Everything you can imagine is possible...
I'm not associated with Autronic in any way. I just want to recomend a fantastic system.
If you after your car is up and running feel that you want to dive into advanced functions you can dive as deep as you like with autronic. Everything you can imagine is possible...
I'm not associated with Autronic in any way. I just want to recomend a fantastic system.
Boosted LS1 said:
DTA is very nice and I hear good reports for emerald and you can look at Omex as well but it's getting more complex then the former 2. Motec is good but very costly and OTT imo. You'll be up and running in no time with the DTA and the software is very friendly. When I buy it'll be a choice of DTA or Omex with DTA being my favourite at the moment.
Or we can sort out a deal on what we do 
^ Yes, you have something good as well. You've finished the website, nice. I've just downloaded the software. Right away I see your's will accept a hall sensor for crank triggering unlike the dta which needs magnetic type.
http://www.solaris-ecs.co.uk/
http://www.solaris-ecs.co.uk/
Edited by Boosted LS1 on Sunday 24th May 20:10
I Don't know A/S from Adam, but the comment about thier only experincing cam sprocket problems on Ultima's is a load of pooh, Very convienant excuse. Any engine builder, building s.b Chevy's that are holding them out as high performance engines uses a Cloyes dual roll chain and sprocket or better,period. The stock chains have been a short comming on high reving high preformance Chevies since the 60s. The support I have received from the factory has been excellent. But believe me there are much better engine builders in the U.S. Anyone reading this that has not selected an engine for his Ultima IMO has two choices. Build it with an LS series motor or one of the Audi or other differnt motors but let the tradtional S.B. go the way of the gooney bird.
I've had a look at the Autronic solution, although clearly highly rated it doesn't seem very well supported in uk. It did occur to me that the maps are essentially lookup tables, so an algorithm approach like the Autronic should work well. However if I go down the DTA route I can get full (and hopefully matched) package from the same supplier, and once tuned it should be pretty robust.
Just a quickie - Any ideas where I'd get a Cloyes chain setup from? I've not found a good SBC parts supplier in the uk, do people just import?
Cheers,
J
Just a quickie - Any ideas where I'd get a Cloyes chain setup from? I've not found a good SBC parts supplier in the uk, do people just import?
Cheers,
J
Have imported most of my stuff....CNC motorsports, Jegs etc but to be fair Real Steel and Performance Unlimited (York) do carry stock, also have provided great service whenever I used them.
I'll have some very good, purpose matched components for a serious 377/406 up for grabs soon! (these are not gash performance parts though)
I'll have some very good, purpose matched components for a serious 377/406 up for grabs soon! (these are not gash performance parts though)
CanAmJay said:
I've had a look at the Autronic solution, although clearly highly rated it doesn't seem very well supported in uk. It did occur to me that the maps are essentially lookup tables, so an algorithm approach like the Autronic should work well. However if I go down the DTA route I can get full (and hopefully matched) package from the same supplier, and once tuned it should be pretty robust.
Just a quickie - Any ideas where I'd get a Cloyes chain setup from? I've not found a good SBC parts supplier in the uk, do people just import?
Cheers,
J
have you tried Real Steel nr heathrow??Just a quickie - Any ideas where I'd get a Cloyes chain setup from? I've not found a good SBC parts supplier in the uk, do people just import?
Cheers,
J
they are expensive on some stuff though, but usually have it in stock and you get it next day
Dom
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