Which kit to drive to the circuit, thrash, then drive back?

[Chris71]

Ok... I can resist it no longer. I'm afraid it's time for a 'what car?' thread.

Having swapped my last kit car for something a bit more road-orientated a couple of years ago I've now decided that tracks are more fun than B-roads, so I'm thinking about heading back into the fold. I'm looking for something 2nd hand (ready built) and the requirements are as follows:

• 75% track, 25% road use
• Has to be affordable to run with reliable, widely available mainstream parts
• Has to be easy to work on so even an idiot like me will pick up the spanners rather than paying someone else to do so. I'm assuming this means good access?
• Has to stand a reasonable chance of passing a 98dB noise test - I realise that's down to the specific drivetrain, but presumably something that works well with car engines (as opposed to BEC) and with the space to fit a bigger silencer would be good?
• Must handle well.
• Competitive straightline performance for its engine size would be an advantage (as I'm hoping to do some sprinting) but secondary to fun factor
• Decent weather gear and some basic storage space would be an advantage, as would anything else that makes it more civilised on the road

One of the main questions is 'Seven-type versus others? What are the pros and cons of a full-width body and is there a major differnce in weather protection/comfort between, say, a Striker and a Fury? Would I regret holding out for something with a full screen etc?

Any general thoughts on using a road going kit on track?

Basically the idea is that it will be used on the road on sunny Sunday afternoons; it's not intended to be a GT. However, if I've got a track day booked 100 miles away and it's bucketing down then something vaguely civilised might be good!

[FlatPack]

I've got an aeroscreened 20v 4AGE powered Striker that I used in almost exactly the way you described. It'll pass 98db static comfortably, I could stow a few bits and pieces either in the area above the fuel tank (it doesn't actually have a boot), strapped to the roll bar or in the passenger side of the car. For a track day I'd usually have a few tools, soft bag with changes of clothes, car cover and a 20l jerry can on board for example.

The OH and I used it for a driving weekend up in the lakes too, with just stuff we could fit onto the rollbar or above the fuel tank and that was great too

The handling is fantastic and I could drive for hours to a circuit with no problems, turn up and tweak the dampers and it'll work really well on track too.

Chris71 said:

However, if I've got a track day booked 100 miles away and it's bucketing down then something vaguely civilised might be good!

This I found a major PITA, I'm sure that's because I'm a wimp and loads of really hardcore people will tell you it's fine, but for me it really wasn't! A few times we decided to use my old Supra or the OH's even older MR2 instead just because the weather was crappy.

Using these cars is great on a nice sunny day for blasting around on b-roads. They're rubbish and miserable for trawling away from a track at the end of a very long day in the pissing rain on the motorway with lorries trying to run you over. Mine is aeroscreened so I don't have any weather gear option, but by all accounts it's pretty rubbish anyway.

For this year I've given up on that and bought a trailer, which I think is a far far better idea! There's something very satisfying about getting soaked all day and then changing into dry clothes and climbing into a car with a roof to drive home when you've experienced the alternative

[EDIT]Oh the other thing was I always found myself with the nagging feeling that if I binned / broke it I still had to get it home somehow - I can drive it much harder now in the knowledge that if something goes pop I can always drag it onto the trailer and get it home

Edited by FlatPack on Tuesday 26th May 16:48

[Chris71]

I'm not a great fan of the idea of towing to be honest, plus I don't really have the storage space for a trailer or a suitable tow car.

I'd obviously prefer to stay warm and dry, but it's not the end of the world if I had to drive an open car with a half tonneau or something, providing its stripped. What really gets me is when you have a halfway house - water streaming through a leaky hood straight onto a fully trimmed, carpetted interior, for example. That said, a fully functioning hood would be better still (although I still don't see the need for carpets in a toy!)

ETA Some specific thoughts, but I'm interested in other idea too:

• Sylva Striker - probably the most focused for track use, but is it a bit too extreme on the road?
• Stylus/Fury - does the increased comfort and lower drag make up for (presumably) increased complexity and weight?
• GTM Libra - outside possibility. Is there any roll protection in the standard body? And, dare I ask, how would running the costs compare to an S1 Elise? Presumably heavier than the same engine option in a Seven or Fury?

Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 26th May 17:37

[FlatPack]

Aaah, no carpets or trim in mine - about the only thing to get sodden was the bench seat and I'd just take the bases out at the end of the day and leave them stood somewhere warm to dry. Drain holes in the floor are useful too to stop the whole thing filling up like a bath (oops!). It's perfectly possible to use the car that way and it doesn't seem to have done it any harm, I just found it pretty unpleasant.

[Blib]

Shirley, Ferg's the guy to speak to about Libras. Did you get to talk to him last time at The Plough?

[Paul Drawmer]

Who are you calling Shirley?

[neilrallying]

Hi Chris.

I've got something sat in the workshop that will tick all of the boxes for you!! ;-)

Hope to see you at a track or show soon.

Neil.

[groomi]

I've done a similar thing to the OP's quest, although my split is approx 75% road and 25% track.

I opted for a cheap old Westfield with the intention of playing and modifying to suit my needs. So far I've done one trackday at Snetterton which involved approx. 100 miles each way.

The biggest problem on the road was the wind noise and constant buffetting. I'd like to reduce that, so I'm looking to experiment with some basic aero tweeks. On the circuit it performed well (needs some setup work but that's by-the-by). Wear and tear was light on track and is so far proving to be easy to live with as a weekend toy for the road.

Probably the biggest drawback on the longer journeys is the tiny fuel tank, so I'll probably fit a long range tank at some point.

[Furyblade_Lee]

I used to have a Libra. It was quite fast with 170bhp+ / 780kgs, and i did 10 trackdays in it.I do all my trackdays with Lotus-on-track and it could mix it with similar powered Elises / Exiges, but it was hard work! You need to be comforable with oversteer.... If you want to do trackdays regularly in one, i advise you look for one with the later revised suspension and a front anti-roll bar. The Trophy brakes are a bonus too. I loved my Libra, but i would honestly advise buying an Elise over a Libra if you are biased towards trackdays. If you were biased towards road with occasional trackdays then Libra everytime (a good one). Insurance MUCH cheaper, I toured Germany and the Black Forest in mine and it was a superb choice with lots of storage space.

In fact, by the sounds of what you want i would look at one of the the harder Elises, maybe a Sport160 or something? Close ratio box, pumped up a bit ect.

[Furyblade_Lee]

Forgot to add, a Libra is seriously one of the safest cars on the road, period. The cockpit is quite litterally a GPR saftety cell, there have been several BIG shunts over the years, and i mean big, but to my knowledge nobody has ever been hurt in one. Basically in a whopper all four wheels and the engine will fall off / out, but the cockpit will remain intact fully. Try to find some pictures. One young car mechanic took a red one in for a radio fix for a joyride once. The speedo was stuck on 110mph...... the car was spread out over about 200yds down a B-road, like a plane crash. But the kid just climbed out.

Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Tuesday 26th May 22:40

[Chris71]

Furyblade_Lee said:

You need to be comforable with oversteer.... I loved my Libra, but i would honestly advise buying an Elise over a Libra if you are biased towards trackdays. If you were biased towards road with occasional trackdays then Libra everytime... Insurance MUCH cheaper

Oversteer sounds good. Just providing I have some warning and some chance of catching it! Can you ellaborate a little bit on the differences with the Elise? The Lotus is a distinct possibility as far as production cars go, although I do like the leftfield nature of the GTM.

The are two things lurking in the back of my mind. Firstly, I'd prefer to be able to play with the car a little more than I assumed a mid-engined design would allow me to do (at least not without a lot more talent). Secondly - as as a TVR owner I should probably know better - but I sort of assumed the Lotus badge would make an Elise more expensive to run than a Libra? On the upside, I've got a phenomenally good deal on limited mileage insurance through the people I insure the TVR with and I reckon they'd insure an Elise for kit car levels.

neilrallying said:

I've got something sat in the workshop that will tick all of the boxes for you!! ;-)

I do believe I read rather a good article about it recently. Sounds like a very handy piece of kit, but slightly out of my price range for the time being.

Edited by Chris71 on Wednesday 27th May 00:01

[Blib]

Chris71 said:

I'd prefer to be able to play with the car a little more than I assumed a mid-engined design would allow me to do (at least not without a lot more talent).

Wimp.

[Furyblade_Lee]

PM me Chris is you want an in depth analsysis of the Libra. Too much for here. I am a big fan, but I would advise against one by the sounds of what you want. The Elise had excellent parts supply, off the shelf tuning, racing classes, sprint chanpinships and much wider choice of cars to start with. parts supply is the main bugbear with the Libra, if you are tracking one regularly it could be a problem. Callme on 07801 495568 and I can explain properly.

[neilrallying]

Elise is a great bet - reatively cheap to buy now, good aftermarket for parts and support and when you get bored of the K-series lots of options.

We are in the process of putting a Civic Type R engine into a 98 S1 Elise for a client at the moment who has grown tired of the old K.

Will be a proper little toy when finished!

NY

[Chris71]

Furyblade_Lee said:

PM me Chris is you want an in depth analsysis of the Libra.

YHM

The Elise probably does offer the best road/track compromise (of the serious performance cars - MX5s etc. excepted). I guess there are three things which hang on my mind: The costs (I did enquire in the Lotus section and people seemed to be spending more on their K-Series Elise than I do on my 6 cylinder TVR); the prices as the S1 starts to become a 'modern classic' (and the chances of getting a mechanically good one without paying a premium for mint cosmetics); and the mid-engined handling traits.

On the latter point I probably am, as Blib pointed out, being a bit of a wimp. But he can attest to the fact my driving currently bears enthusiasm over skill.

[Vindi_andy]

neilrallying said:

Hi Chris.

I've got something sat in the workshop that will tick all of the boxes for you!! ;-)

Hope to see you at a track or show soon.

Neil.

Would this be a murtaya-s by any chance neil??

Saw the write up in total kitcar was very complimentary

[offshorematt2]

Chris71 said:

The Elise probably does offer the best road/track compromise (of the serious performance cars - MX5s etc. excepted). I guess there are three things which hang on my mind: The costs (I did enquire in the Lotus section and people seemed to be spending more on their K-Series Elise than I do on my 6 cylinder TVR); the prices as the S1 starts to become a 'modern classic' (and the chances of getting a mechanically good one without paying a premium for mint cosmetics); and the mid-engined handling traits.

On the latter point I probably am, as Blib pointed out, being a bit of a wimp. But he can attest to the fact my driving currently bears enthusiasm over skill.

By 6 cylinder TVR, I assume you are talking Speed 6? Having had a couple of S1 Elises and currently an S1 Exige I struggle to see how you could spend comparable money, in reality... hourly rates for the basics is probably comparable seeing as you would be best using independants for most of it however parts for the K Series are cheap, cheap, cheap. Have a browse round eliseparts.com or elise-shop and see what service parts cost. And don't believe the hype - the K-series isn't even as half as bad as people make out reliability-wise. Plus, a replacement engine will set you back less than a grand rather than ten times that amount. Price-wise, it's a fantastic time to be buying S1's - they have reached the 7-8grand range for a reasonable one. Ignore the bodywork and just take a careful look over the mechanicals before buying - it's not a very complicated car. Best of all, there's plenty out there so if you don't like the look walk away. Much more choice on the second hand car market compared to most kit car manufacturers I would think?

Mid handling traits? Make sure you have decent tyres and the handling is sublime. Remember that most S1's are relatively low power as well as low weight. With stickies, you really have to work to provoke anything more than a small slide. Just take it easy when there is standing water about. I can heartily recommend one...

Edited by offshorematt2 on Wednesday 27th May 17:42

[Sam_68]

offshorematt2 said:

By 6 cylinder TVR, I assume you are talking Speed 6? Having had a couple of S1 Elises and currently an S1 Exige I struggle to see how you could spend comparable money, in reality...

Ford V6-engined S3, judging by your profile?

Even so, everything offshorematt said holds true... my experience of K-series Elises is that they are reliable and cheap to maintain, and parts supply is excellent. You'll go through tyres, of course, if you're tracking it, but then the same holds true for any car.

If the back end steps out on a 'Seven' or your TVR and you quickly lift off the throttle, it will snap back into line and carry on as if nothing happened most of the time. With an Elise it will spin if you are clumsy and didn't heed the warnings, but if you ride the slide it will usually sort itself out. They are certainly nothing to be afraid of.

Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 27th May 18:20

[Chris71]

Sam_68 said:

offshorematt2 said:

By 6 cylinder TVR, I assume you are talking Speed 6? Having had a couple of S1 Elises and currently an S1 Exige I struggle to see how you could spend comparable money, in reality...

Ford V6-engined S3, judging by your profile?

Even so, everything offshorematt said holds true... my experience of K-series Elises is that they are reliable and cheap to maintain, and parts supply is excellent. You'll go through tyres, of course, if you're tracking it, but then the same holds true for any car.

If the back end steps out on a 'Seven' or your TVR and you quickly lift off the throttle, it will snap back into line and carry on as if nothing happened most of the time. With an Elise it will spin if you are clumsy and didn't heed the warnings, but if you ride the slide it will usually sort itself out. They are certainly nothing to be afraid of.

'tis indeed an S3. Not an expensive beast like the Speed 6 cars, which is why the bills some of the Lotus guys were talking about confused me a little.

There are two things that worry me on a mechanical level: Firstly the access on the Elise sounds like a pain if you're going to do any work yourself. Secondly, they seem to eat suspension and steering components.

I saw an article on the Auto Express website, which read:

Elise steering racks wear out within 35,000 miles... the Lotus's front suspension usually wear out after only 35,000 miles... dampers can last a mere 20,000 miles... bushes are prone to wear... brake discs wear surprisingly quickly if the car is driven hard etc.

Don't sugar the pill guys, tell it like it is.

On a serious note, I do get the impression that they require more upkeep than some of the alternatives when subjected to track work. On the upside they're hugely well supported, quite plentiful (for picking the right one), good value currently, one of the more civilised road options and if I encounter a bigger job there are dealers/specialists to fall back on (albeit at a cost).

I think it comes down to an Elise or a Stylus/Fury/Phoenix/Striker, with an outside possibility of an MX5 (for sheer ease) or a Ginetta G27 as a sort of compromise between the two.

Edited by Chris71 on Thursday 28th May 11:20

[offshorematt2]

Yup i agree with most of what Auto Express says. But then I would consider all those items to be consumables and have trouble believing that all manufacturers parts don't have the same lifespan if driven hard or regularly tracked... I don't believe for a second that an MX5 or a Ginetta wouldn't suffer from worn shocks, brakes and ball joints after a summer of clipping the apex and a steering rack can be refurb'd at Titan for not a lot of cash.

Thinking about it, maybe the reason it's highlighted is that there aren't any other 'major' small volume manufacturers making cars that are so routinely spanked on track (except maybe Caterham/Westfield?). I'm sure there are exceptions...

The solution is to buy a car that has just had all the above refreshed. I sold the Elise in the picture above about a year ago with all the work you mention done (including single adjustable Nitron suspension) for £8300 with the only bad points being some stone chips and a burst flexi pipe on the exhaust. There's deals to be had!