Opening the can.... what are the pros and cons of 'Sevens

[Chris71]

New thread to be a bit more specific about the problem: I'm looking for a new track toy and occasional road car and kit car wise it's boiled down to two choices, one of which is a Seven of some description. I'm looking for something light weight, simple, cheap and easy to maintain, with good parts availability and a good chance of finding a reasonably high spec example already prepared for track work.

I'd sort of assumed that pointed towards a Striker, probably a Zetec engined example with a recent IRS (from the parts point of view as much as anything else)?

So, Seven-wise, what's worth looking out for both in terms of chassis/design and engine options? (I'm ignoring BEC because of the noise issues with local tracks.)

Finally - if it's not a contradiction in terms for a 'Seven, half decent weather gear would be a bonus.

The sheer mulitude of different designs make it far more complicated than picking out a Fury or something. Off the top of my head there's the Striker, Westfield SEi(W), MK Indy, Stuart Taylor Locost derivatives, Tiger. Can you make any generalisation - this one tends to be quick; this one tends to be lightest; this has the best build quality; this one if most practical, anything like that?

[Sam_68]

Chris71 said:

Can you make any generalisation - this one tends to be quick; this one tends to be lightest; this has the best build quality; this one if most practical, anything like that?

Sylvas tend to be quickest and lightest. Westfield and Dax tend to be best/most consistent build quality (unless you can afford a Caterham), and none of them are even slightly practical.

HTH

Note that a full windscreen (hence weather equipment) on any Seven is going to cost you at least 5-10mph on your top speed. That might not sound much, but it also equates to at least 5-10mph's worth less acceleration when you're trying to overtake the more aerodynamic and powerful cars on the straights. You're not supposed to overtake on bends on track days, so it can become pretty frustrating when you get stuck behind a TVR or something that poodles round the bends 25mph slower than you could manage, but has too much acceleration for you to pass him when he boots it up the straights.

The weather gear on all Sevens is practically worthless, anyway, so you might as well forget it and use an aeroscreen.

...and if you accept that the basic aerodynamics of 'Seven' are a major problem at circuit speeds, anyway, then you're really looking at a Sylva-derived Fury/Phoenix, which offers all the advantages of a 'normal' Seven but much better aerodynamics. To give you some idea of the difference, my Phoenix will pull a relatively easy 135mph, compared to about 120mph for my old Caterham, both with Ford Crossflow engines of very similar spec and power.

[mr_fibuli]

Here's what I came up with before ending up with a Westy:

Tiger - I looked at a few of these but ruled them out as the SuperCat uses the whole Sierra rear subframe so is quite heavy, and the lighter R6 is rare - I've only seen one advertised second hand on PH in the last 6 months.

Westfield - What I ended up going for, I suppose the main attraction was that it was an established brand with a well developed product, active owners club, and easily available parts and upgrades. Plus a good choice of engines from BEC to V8s.

Striker - Always seem to get praised for handling, I'm not keen on the looks though.

MK Indy - Don't know much about these but the ones I've seen have always looked well built and specced.

MNR - Like the look of these and keep hearing good things about them.

For good weather gear the Westy might be the best bet, but even then it isn't great.

With all these kits build quality and spec is probably more important than model. Parts can get expensive when upgraditus sets in, so you can probably save a lot by paying a few grand more for a car that is decently specced.

Nice (expensive) stuff to look out for:

Small light weight wheels
LSD
Light weight bits - carbon seats, dash, cycle wings bodywork etc.
Digital dash
Decent removable steering wheel
Light weight alloy hubs
Anti roll bars
Upgraded brakes - light weight 4-pot calipers etc.
Working roll over protection - full cage ideally
Shiny new adjustable shocks


As for build quality you just need to see a few and you get a feel for how well put together they are. If the cooling system is plumbed in with garden hose then walk away

Edited by mr_fibuli on Monday 1st June 18:01

[Ferg]

If it was me I'd buy a Striker....or perhaps MNR.

[Chris71]

Thanks guys. Some useful info.

Have to say I'm starting to be tempted by a Caterham. It always seemed like a normal '7 style kit for twice the price, but I figure if it holds the value and comes with a suitable spec that's not inherently bad. Any thoughts on this one?

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1024576.htm

I hasten to add I still prefer the idea of something like a Striker, but there seem to be a lot more Caterhams around this area than the other '7 type cars!

Anyone who's got something suitable for sale feel free to PM me if you want! Not desperate to force my money onto someone, but interested to see what's out there.

Sam - you mentioned weather protection in '7s and Furys. Do you reckon a Stylus/Fury would be a major improvement in that respect?

[Sam_68]

Chris71 said:

Do you reckon a Stylus/Fury would be a major improvement in that respect?

Yes, definitely.

They've got proper doors (with seals!), so water doesn't blow up under the edge of the sidescreens, rigid glazing on the side screens (Sylvas have this anyway, but many Sevens use clear vinyl) and - probably most importantly - curved windscreens with proper windscreen wipers (again, normal' Sylvas aren't bad in this respect, either; they've got flat windscreens, but more steeply raked than 'normal' sevens and with a single large wiper blade instead of the dinky little twin 6" long jobs used on most other Sevens, that just seem to smear the road dirt around a bit).

If you're that bothered about practicality, though, then you're looking at the wrong car entirely - get an Elise.

[Chris71]

Sam_68 said:

If you're that bothered about practicality, though, then you're looking at the wrong car entirely - get an Elise.

I know I've kind of said this already, but I don't ever intend to use the car in the rain, but if I've got a track day booked 100 miles away and it's pissing down it could be a useful advantage. I think the Elise is fundamentally different, but just how bad the weather protection is could be a deciding factor if it came down to a Stylus or a Striker for example.

Have to say, despite always saying I couldn't see the point, the sheer number of Caterhams on the market and the ease of resale is starting to make me contemplate one.

[Sam_68]

Chris71 said:

...if I've got a track day booked 100 miles away and it's pissing down it could be a useful advantage.

No, it wouldn't. Really it wouldn't.

The only thing more miserable than a 200 mile round trip in the rain, in a lightweight, track-tuned Seven is having to drive it at high speed around a race circuit in the wet, once you get there, eating the spray of 4WD Japanese rally replicas and French hatchbacks.

Either get a car that is at least tolerable to drive in the wet (ie. an Elise), or accept that:
a) you cancel and lose your deposit if you book track days in advance or;
b) you don't book track days in advance and only do them at short notice, when you know the weather is going to be half decent.

[thescamper]

I would second the comments on the Striker. I used my striker 52 weeks of the year and with the Sylva hard sidescreens on, you keep dry as long as you are moving. When I stopped I used one of those automatic brollies. If the car is only going to be used for 25% of its life on the roads I would have said it doesn't really matter.

I did have a hood for my car but didn't use it coz it made the car colder and a damn sight noisier and the joint between windscreen and hood just collected water and then threw it at you.

Whats it matter a little water never hurt anyone and remember skin is waterproof.

[Chris71]

thescamper said:

I did have a hood for my car but didn't use it coz it made the car colder and a damn sight noisier and the joint between windscreen and hood just collected water and then threw it at you.

Whats it matter a little water never hurt anyone and remember skin is waterproof.

True. My main worry about waterproofing stems from having cars with a combination of quite fancy interiors and diabolical hoods! I was always more worried about the state of the carpets than me. I think a more track biased car where no one would object to me taking the carpets out and drilling some holes in the floor would be better!

I think some of it comes down to availability and that doesn't run in the Sylva's favour. For every Striker there's 10 Elises and 5 Caterhams in the same area!

[Ferg]

Chris71 said:

For every Striker there's 10 Elises and 5 Caterhams in the same area!

Oops, nearly forgot...

Individuality.

[Sam_68]

Chris71 said:

...where no one would object to me taking the carpets out and drilling some holes in the floor would be better!

Now, if you're looking for a Seven with carpets for you to take out in the first place, you really are going to have a search on your hands! I think you may have to adjust your perspective, slightly, after the TVR!

Even proper Elises (ie. the ones that weigh less than 900 kilos) don't have 'em.

Having said all which, if you must have a Seven (and without having met you, I've gotta say I still get the impression you'll find a Seven a bit too raw and be happier in an Elise), the Caterham is as habitable as any. The weather gear is reasonably well developed and it's not impossible to find them with such sybaritic luxuries as heaters and heated windscreens (did I mention that all Sevens mist up instantly in the wet? Much more fun dodging Mitsubishi Evos around Silverstone in the rain when you can't see a damn thing, doncha know... remember the Who song: 'that deaf, dumb and blind kid, sure plays a mean pinball'? ).

[Ferg]

All done by smell...

[Snake the Sniper]

I'd 2nd what Sam said. Track 7s don't have carpets. Most road 7's don't have carpets. There may well be a covering for the floor, but it's not likely to be absorbent. Mine is a road car, but has no windscreen, not heater, silly small mirrors, only has floor covering on the drivers side (and that's skateboard stuff), no boot (although the mrs tells me I should really make one), and you will smell of it for the rest of the day after a good hoon. Try one, you'll either love it to bits, or decide that an Elise is the way for you.

[kambites]

Sam_68 said:

Even proper Elises (ie. the ones that weigh less than 900 kilos) don't have 'em.

Pft, my Elise has carpets and weighs under 800kg with an empty fuel tank. Still damned heavy compared to a Caterham though.

[Ferg]

kambites said:

Still damned heavy compared to a Caterham though.

..and a GTM LIbra.

[Chris71]

That's music to my ears - in most of the adverts I've seen the cars appeared to be carpeted and I didn't understand it either.

In a way, Sam, you're right. as I said on the other thread if the Elise was front engined, like a sort of grown up MX5, I'd be in there like a shot.

Although, that said, I don't think I'm quite as softcore as you assume. The car isn't going to be driven to work. It doesn't have to carry suitcases across Europe or anything. It has to be good fun on a sunny Sunday afternoon's blast - that's all it'll do 90% of the time. It's just if it is horses for courses and I can get something which offers a wider repetoire without losing out on the fun then that's even better.

[mr_fibuli]

Chris71 said:

Thanks guys. Some useful info.

Have to say I'm starting to be tempted by a Caterham. It always seemed like a normal '7 style kit for twice the price, but I figure if it holds the value and comes with a suitable spec that's not inherently bad. Any thoughts on this one?

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1024576.htm

When I looked at Caterhams I came to a similar conclusion. If you compare a brand new Caterham and Westfield then there isn't much in it price-wise if you match the spec like for like (ie. no refurbed Sierra bits). Its just that the Caterham holds its money much better, so costs more secondhand, but you get that back when you come to sell it.

I like the look of the one in that ad, I'd have been quite tempted if there was something similar at that price when I bought my Westy.

[Sam_68]

Chris71 said:

Although, that said, I don't think I'm quite as softcore as you assume.

I wouldn't consider myself softcore, either - 50% of my fleet doesn't have a windscreen, let alone weather gear - yet I wouldn't want to do a 100 mile round trip with a trackday in the middle in a Seven, in the rain.

But I'm not sure you fully appreciate the limitations of these cars in wet weather. Why? Because if you're nervous of an Elise because it's mid-engined, then you don't want to be anywhere near a high-powered Seven on trackday tyres, in the wet. The lack of grip and the lack of visibility make it a much more difficult, dangerous place to be.

[Chris71]

mr_fibuli said:

Chris71 said:

Thanks guys. Some useful info.

Have to say I'm starting to be tempted by a Caterham. It always seemed like a normal '7 style kit for twice the price, but I figure if it holds the value and comes with a suitable spec that's not inherently bad. Any thoughts on this one?

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1024576.htm

When I looked at Caterhams I came to a similar conclusion. If you compare a brand new Caterham and Westfield then there isn't much in it price-wise if you match the spec like for like (ie. no refurbed Sierra bits). Its just that the Caterham holds its money much better, so costs more secondhand, but you get that back when you come to sell it.

I like the look of the one in that ad, I'd have been quite tempted if there was something similar at that price when I bought my Westy.

Yep. The only thing that slightly concerns me is that the Vauxhall-powered HPC is said to be particularly noisy for a 'Seven, so that might be an issue for track days. If I do get something as focused as a Caterfield there's no bloody way I'm going to get one that I can't take to my local track!

Sam_68 said:

But I'm not sure you fully appreciate the limitations of these cars in wet weather. Why? Because if you're nervous of an Elise because it's mid-engined, then you don't want to be anywhere near a high-powered Seven on trackday tyres, in the wet. The lack of grip and the lack of visibility make it a much more difficult, dangerous place to be.

To the contrary the first time I ever drove a Caterham was an example with bald, over-inflated rear tyres just after a downpour! Had the time of my life.

Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 2nd June 10:40