Naming and Shaming for TVR's
Discussion
At last, a TVR website has decided to permit naming and shaming, within reasonable limits. So now, when we have a problem, we can say it there.
http://www.tvrmonster.com/forum2/index.php?board=1...
It should be very popular.
This is badly needed and has so often been called for. If it proves a success, then it will refute the arguments, so often put forward against naming and shaming by many other sites.
Let’s use it responsibly, and long may it continue.
To Monster I say, thank you for having the courage to tackle this thorny issue. I salute you sir.
TVR Monster has posted the following on their site.
OK, so on PH TVRCC etc, the moderators cut in whenever anything is posted that shows anyone in a bad light. Here on "Monster" we aren't tied to anyone strongly enough to bar any topics PROVIDING they
1 are genuine greivences.
2 factual
3 no dis-respect
Other than that, pretty much anything goes. The idea of THIS forum (and this site) is that its genuine, and anyone who has supplied us bits/parts to test have always known that we would report honestly!
The idea of this section is to allow people to discuss their issues and maybe iron out problems with parts or suppliers or materials. Now if this turns into a big slagging match, it'll serve no real purpose and I'll look at it again. But in the meantime...it's all ours...
Listed (though well known) are my TVR related sponsors just to get it out in the open.
Dulford Automotive
TVRcarparts
SC Power
A Manning UK (07 not currently)
Disclaimer! Anything posted in these forums is not necessarilly the oppinion of TVRmonster or any of its associates.
We are in the FSB and as a subsidualry of RPM Ltd are well insured against legal costs for liable etc.
http://www.tvrmonster.com/forum2/index.php?board=1...
It should be very popular.
This is badly needed and has so often been called for. If it proves a success, then it will refute the arguments, so often put forward against naming and shaming by many other sites.
Let’s use it responsibly, and long may it continue.
To Monster I say, thank you for having the courage to tackle this thorny issue. I salute you sir.
TVR Monster has posted the following on their site.
OK, so on PH TVRCC etc, the moderators cut in whenever anything is posted that shows anyone in a bad light. Here on "Monster" we aren't tied to anyone strongly enough to bar any topics PROVIDING they
1 are genuine greivences.
2 factual
3 no dis-respect
Other than that, pretty much anything goes. The idea of THIS forum (and this site) is that its genuine, and anyone who has supplied us bits/parts to test have always known that we would report honestly!
The idea of this section is to allow people to discuss their issues and maybe iron out problems with parts or suppliers or materials. Now if this turns into a big slagging match, it'll serve no real purpose and I'll look at it again. But in the meantime...it's all ours...
Listed (though well known) are my TVR related sponsors just to get it out in the open.
Dulford Automotive
TVRcarparts
SC Power
A Manning UK (07 not currently)
Disclaimer! Anything posted in these forums is not necessarilly the oppinion of TVRmonster or any of its associates.
We are in the FSB and as a subsidualry of RPM Ltd are well insured against legal costs for liable etc.
I'm sorry... as someone who was 'picked on' to kick off the site by Andy, who bought the parts about 3 years ago, and was SO PLEASED with them that he wanted to sell them ........ and then never bothered to contact me about any problems he might have had, I think this is totally irresponsible.
On his site, he talks about grievances and his FSB membership and how insurance will protect him against any legal issues — but that is just rubbish. Libel laws apply to EVERY web site, AND those who contribute — which is why PH, amongst others, applies the 'no naming and shaming' rule quite rigorously. The rules are not there to protect the guilty but to prevent 'trial by Internet' by people who often have a hidden agenda. We've all seen where that can lead.
If anyone has any problems whatsoever with any of my products, I expect them to come to me, in the first instance. I do not expect them to wait SEVERAL YEARS and then complain and publicly criticise me for not responding/doing anything about it, when I hadn't even been told there might have been a problem!
Interestingly, when I first became aware of his post, I had quite a long conversation with one of Andy's sponsors (who just happens to be a major customer of mine) about his claims and heard a quite different side to the story......
On his site, he talks about grievances and his FSB membership and how insurance will protect him against any legal issues — but that is just rubbish. Libel laws apply to EVERY web site, AND those who contribute — which is why PH, amongst others, applies the 'no naming and shaming' rule quite rigorously. The rules are not there to protect the guilty but to prevent 'trial by Internet' by people who often have a hidden agenda. We've all seen where that can lead.
If anyone has any problems whatsoever with any of my products, I expect them to come to me, in the first instance. I do not expect them to wait SEVERAL YEARS and then complain and publicly criticise me for not responding/doing anything about it, when I hadn't even been told there might have been a problem!
Interestingly, when I first became aware of his post, I had quite a long conversation with one of Andy's sponsors (who just happens to be a major customer of mine) about his claims and heard a quite different side to the story......
Uncle Fester said:
It should be very popular.
This is badly needed and has so often been called for. If it proves a success, then it will refute the arguments, so often put forward against naming and shaming by many other sites.
Let’s use it responsibly, and long may it continue.
I think it's an exceptionally stupid move to allow it. It opens the site owners to liability for defamation, and encourages people to try to resolve problems by complaining on a public forum. That's not the way to resolve a complaint, and is grossly unfair to suppliers (who, if they have any sense, will stay well away from public slanging matches). This is badly needed and has so often been called for. If it proves a success, then it will refute the arguments, so often put forward against naming and shaming by many other sites.
Let’s use it responsibly, and long may it continue.
You've pointed out how unusual it is for forum owners to allow naming and shaming, and there are very good reasons for that.
I would say good for them. I don't like PH's no name and shame policy because its a hammer to crack a nut. There is a big difference between what people say on PH, and what they say in the pub, and thats unfortunate for PH, because you don't know if the guy in the pub is right or that the guy in the pub is just giving you one side of a story that couldn't be argued on pistonheads.
PH's doesn't like name and shame because it makes the sponsers uncomfortable. Or at least I suspect thats more the reason than hiding behind defamation laws.
I'd like to think if Shpub and that guy were sitting in a pub the problem would be resolved in five minutes flat. People like Shpub have a wealth of information and experience to impart, and have pretty much faced every problem a buyer might encounter. If the op complains of corrosion, and Shpub says he doesn't have that problem and hasn't been given that problem by previous clients then the op needs to look at why. If a whole crowd post they have been having corrosion problems then suppliers can look at the problem of altering their line.
Even on an internet forum a guy isn't going to get far rubbishing drop links because there are enough users of that drop link who are very likely to tell him they are fully satisfied even without him posting. Yes there are always loonies about who hold a grudge, but I think those people are pretty easy to spot in the pub, or on a forum.
Good moderation on that board is essential, but blanket moderation of the type we sometimes see on PH isn't ideal.
His site might bomb, or it might take off if done properly. If it takes off its fulfilling a need that PH isn't supplying.
I don't want to be part of a forum that is continually slagging people off, but on the other hand if done in an educational and adult matter I don't see why it couldn't improve on PH current way of thinking.
I think the problem is that most people don't know the difference between debating, arguing, and slagging, as so many of the PH's threads will tell you already.
PH's doesn't like name and shame because it makes the sponsers uncomfortable. Or at least I suspect thats more the reason than hiding behind defamation laws.
I'd like to think if Shpub and that guy were sitting in a pub the problem would be resolved in five minutes flat. People like Shpub have a wealth of information and experience to impart, and have pretty much faced every problem a buyer might encounter. If the op complains of corrosion, and Shpub says he doesn't have that problem and hasn't been given that problem by previous clients then the op needs to look at why. If a whole crowd post they have been having corrosion problems then suppliers can look at the problem of altering their line.
Even on an internet forum a guy isn't going to get far rubbishing drop links because there are enough users of that drop link who are very likely to tell him they are fully satisfied even without him posting. Yes there are always loonies about who hold a grudge, but I think those people are pretty easy to spot in the pub, or on a forum.
Good moderation on that board is essential, but blanket moderation of the type we sometimes see on PH isn't ideal.
His site might bomb, or it might take off if done properly. If it takes off its fulfilling a need that PH isn't supplying.
I don't want to be part of a forum that is continually slagging people off, but on the other hand if done in an educational and adult matter I don't see why it couldn't improve on PH current way of thinking.
I think the problem is that most people don't know the difference between debating, arguing, and slagging, as so many of the PH's threads will tell you already.
jammy_basturd said:
How do eBay and Amazon manage with their feedback sections?
There is a court of appeal but equally you can only feedback once so it is pretty obvious what the guy is as you can see from other's feedback. It's not perfect but it works well. The advantage it has is that the context is very focussed: did you get the goods or not?The problem with a forum is that it is potentially endless and the redress for those involved is limited. Legal action is always the last resort but it is extremely expensive and costly in the UK and in the main, the damage is done. You are potentially tried and found guilty if you say nothing, and if you try and defend yourself, it can quickly become a slanging match because the only thing you can do is counter the accusations and effectively call the other party a liar. Essentially that is what a libel trial is all about. Devil and the deep blue sea.
The problem is that with the written language, it can be interpreted in so many different ways. So something that might be acceptable in a pub as its interpretation is helped through context, tone, body language becomes a dead set of words with potentially many interpretations. The problem is that you then don't know which interpretation is taken by the many readers - this may well be an interpretation that is very different from the original. So the originator can have one true factual "interpretation" which is at odds with another. Hence the slanging match, especially when the other party can't see what the problem is!
I agree that good moderation will prevent many a situation but the share amount of traffic and the fact that the mods are volunteers makes it difficult to move to a more subjective approach and hence the more black and white rigid approach that is implemented.
The question I ask before posting is "What would the reaction be of the person I was posting to? Would I like to be on the receiving end? If I got it, would I want anyone else to see it?"
If the answer is no, then change the text or sit on it and think about it. If in doubt, don't send it.
To be honest that is all I have done this afternoon. Despite having the F1 interrupted, I am glad I didn't send them and waited till I had calmed down!
Sadly too many dissatisfied customers in whatever market would rather whinge to anyone who is prepared to listen, instead of having the balls or making the effort to complain to the supplier of the goods or services, and then allowing their grievance to be dealt with through accepted procedures.
I hear such tales of woe every day and I've just stopped listening.
I hear such tales of woe every day and I've just stopped listening.
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Generally two sides to every story.
If you have a problem with a supplier, take it up with them. Let's not give air to whingers who can't sort their own sh&t out.
I fully agree,.... I support the no shaming policy except in exceptional circumstances, where the greater good of PH readers would be served by doing so. If you have a problem with a supplier, take it up with them. Let's not give air to whingers who can't sort their own sh&t out.
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shpub said:
The question I ask before posting is "What would the reaction be of the person I was posting to? Would I like to be on the receiving end? If I got it, would I want anyone else to see it?"
If the answer is no, then change the text or sit on it and think about it. If in doubt, don't send it.
Steve that's outrageous, don't you know that nowadays you are just supposed to post(say) what you want and not consider anyone else at all. You've no chance in modern society If the answer is no, then change the text or sit on it and think about it. If in doubt, don't send it.
TT Tim said:
What if you have a grievance with Andy Race? Is it okay to air it on his site? 
Tim
Would that be the same Andy Race who threw his toys out the pram on the TVRCC site when the losses on Trackdays were queried in the Accouts 2008 thread ????? Nice to see consistent behaviour Tim
http://www.tvr-car-club.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.as...
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