Top Hat liners.. should I have this done?????

[TVR Beaver]

I’m planning to pull the Engine on my T reg 1999 Griff 500 this winter and give it a freshen up.. It’s done 44K now and although it’s been well looked after, I’m sure it could do with new bearings, valves re-seating etc etc.
The question is, do I go for Top Hat liners whilst it’s out and in bit’s?... I’ve been reading a lot on the RV8 and although TVR units don’t appear to have a huge problem with this... Rang Rovers etc do for some reason.. may be they do more miles?.. Is a 99 engine more robust on this issue.. did they change anything?
So is there some association with miles and this problem starting?.. or can you say it’s got to 44K with no issues so leave it alone?
I do want to keep the car long term and I do want a reliable unit (that’s why I want to re-work it although nothing sounding too wrong now).. but these things are expensive if not needed...
I’ve been quoted
£700 from Power
£850 from V8 Developments
£1250 from Turners
Does anyone else do this???
What’s your thoughts on this.. anyone had experience of liners leaking and at what mileage did it start?... Any comments would be appreciated so I can make an educated choice on which way to go here... Cheers

Edited by TVR Beaver on Thursday 18th June 10:07

[LordGrover]

Are you just short of something to do?

Mine's a 1992 430 with over 100k miles and none of this has been done and it's strong as an ox (famous last words). I'm firmly on the side of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' brigade. But then I'm no expert and I'm just plain lazy. And tight.

[Ant.]

Chesmans also do top hat liners.

http://www.chesmanengineering.co.uk/

I believe the Range rovers suffered more from cracked blocks and slipped liners because they were setup to run leaner and therefore ran hotter.

If you have never had any coolant/overheating problems then I can't see any improvement, although it is seen as a belt and braces mod.
Maybe just get the block pressure tested.

[TVR Beaver]

May be... winter is a very dull time in the Beaver household!!.... But best to keep things right before they fail and cost 4 times as much... I need things to be right (I'm and Engineer so if they are not.. it starts to get to me!!)....
The engine when cold has a slight buzz from the bottom end.. a bit of play in the mains may be? and would like to put in a new cam etc... but if I could get this done cheap enough.. it does future proofe it!!...
I think 'Luck' also comes into this.. and I'm not great is this department... It it can happen it will!!

Edited by TVR Beaver on Thursday 18th June 11:06

Edited by TVR Beaver on Thursday 18th June 11:07

[ray_von]

If you want to future proof the engine. Why not get a V8d short engine, which comes with the top hat liners, forged pistons and short throw crank. Not as cheap obviously but it will be future proof.

[TVR Beaver]

Are these the Cos-cast units?.. Talking with Shaun at V8D he's had a number of these leaking on the liners now so won't offer any gaurantees any more for these units... How they leak I don't know .. but not good... He said they would prefer to re-work the existing... This offers them less profit but a gauranteed outcome....

[ray_von]

Not cos cast afaik. Ask Shaun, Rob or Ray. The 500 blocks have larger pistons than standard so the cos cast block would need to be bored out anyway, so I'm sure they wouldn't spec non-flanged liners. I'm certain Rob's said before that they've had no failures of top hat linered blocks, it's a no brainer in my book.

[TVR Beaver]

This is from Shaun.. they have never had re-worked units failed when fitted with top hat's... However Cos-cast units are also fitted with top hat's and have leaked?.. as I say.. I don't know how..... The unit you refer to is 96mm bore so 2 mm bigger than std.. But are these non-Cos-Cast units?.. I don't know what make they are.. will have to give hime a ring...
Anyway.. we are now talking £700 v £2700.. or £3.5K for the very nice 5.2 unit (don't want to look any more.. can feel the dosh leaving my wallet already!!)...
I do want to keep as standard as poss.. and the top hat's do make the block 100% for this problem anyway.. I understand anout the 500's cranks and all that but that said.. I'm not raceing it.. Just want it for a very nice road car and something to keep longer term... When the price go back up and it becomes a classic.. may tak e £20K for it eventualy??!!

[rev-erend]

If you are in splash cash mode .. then why not go for a engine balance too .. it's not cheap at about £300 but well worth while.

[ray_von]

Stand to be corrected but Coscast blocks are not top hat linered
Rev-erend I think the v8d short blocks are fully balanced anyway

[TVR Beaver]

Indeed.. I'm told they use weights on the back of the pulley as std... but as you say.. worth doing even at £300. as this in itself will reduce the thing wearing again.. and obviously give you a better unit and may be even power....
But what about liners...
Should I fit them or not??????????????

Edited by TVR Beaver on Thursday 18th June 12:32

[ray_von]

Fit them. Thank you and goodnight.

[rev-erend]

Yes - fit them ..

Why not go to 5.3 while you are at it

[TVR Beaver]

To go to 5.3 using the existing crank would make the liner even thinner... not a good move if indeed you can get the pistons... To go for a new short engine at close to £4K with Vat... sounds like it would be fun.. but if your doing that.. why not put in a Chevrolet 6.2 ltr or what ever Sportmotive are now planning???..
.
'''The LS3 is a Chevrolet engine..Its around the £8k ish mark to do the complete conversion, engine and gearbox, it just depends on what engine you buy, new or S/H, they did the LS in 5.7 (350BHP) 6.0 (400BHP) and the latest 6.2 (430BHP), the earlier engines are obviously cheaper, I have a new LS1 engine in stock now which you could have for £3k, if you consider you will probably spend that kind of money on your RV8 and it will then still be at its power limit and reliability limit whereas the LS will do easily 100k and is easily tuneable beyond 500bhp. You will also see about £3k for your RV8 engine and gearbox if you sold them which offsets the cost of the conversion. Cheers Ian'''

Sounds like fun!!

[sumoone]

As someone who had a rebuild without top hat liners fitted..........
Then another when the liner slipped........

FIT TOP HAT LINERS WHEN YOUR ENGINE IS BEING REBUILT

i didnt and financially i regretted it.

It is a well known problem THAT COULD HAPPEN

it might just be YOU...


just my opinion

Mark

[Skier]

I no longer own a TVR but did have a Griffith 500. I now have (amongst others) a Range Rover with what was a standard 4.6 V8 engine. I suffered the slipped liner issue that resulted a destroyed engine. There is a great deal of disagreement on what truly causes the issue; I don't care - it happens and cost me £9k! (Actually, I do care and from my experience I believe it is all related to problems with the cooling.) I should say that it cost me 9k as I decided to make something positive out of it and had a V8 Developments 5.3ltr engine fitted (built for torque rather than top-end power) that was top hat linered. Along with some Mark Adam's magic and new injectors it has been faultless for 16k miles and has resulted in quite a quick brick ;o)

Personally, if you're planning on keeping your Grff for a long time and want to make it as good as you can then get it top hat linered. If you really want to have some fun, give it to V8 Developments and ask them to mod your engine to their 5.3ltr variant or 5.4ltr if they've got that sorted (get in tounch with 2Munkys).

Whatever you decide, have fun!

Regards

Skier

Edited by Skier on Friday 19th June 07:52

Edited by Skier on Saturday 20th June 21:59

[TVR Beaver]

Thanks Mark / Skier for the info... how long after the re-build did it happem Mark?.. and what's the total miles on you engine?... Skier... I'm sure you right with the temp thing.. RR's run very weak (as I think is commented here) resulting in more heat and problems with the liners... TVR not as much but I'm sure a few people must have suffered this....
I'd love the 5.3 but it's very expensive.. and is it then a true Griff if / when it comes to re-sale?? not sure people would like it although it would double my grinn in the meantime!!

Cheers... John

[crackedfinger]

Would it not cost the same to replace the liners after they have slipped or before (preventative)?

I'm wondering if there is any point in doing this at all, unless it's already apart/ you are doing something else to the block?

[TVR Beaver]

Gavin.. The idea is to re-new the bearings.. do some porting / balancing, new cam etc.... Whilst it is out and in bit's for this work... is it worth doing the TH liners?... (not just taking it out to do them or I agree.. wait till it goes wrong as it don't actualy harm anything when they go unless you let it run dry or something)...
But I think from the comments here... It's worth doing..

[Skier]

Getting them top hat lined as a preventative measure whilst the engine is out will incur minimum additional cost (approx £800). Waiting for the problem to occur and then fixing it could, and did in my case, result in you needing a new engine! I should say that the first sign that anything was wrong in my case was when the engine started pinking. I immediately pulled over (on the M1 at the time) - that engine never ran again!

Regards

Skier