timing at trackdays
Discussion
Do you think timing should be allowed at more trackdays? there was a track evening at bedford on wednesday with timing transponders, screens, printouts and usb stick downloads provided, a great way to measure your, and your car's improvement over time.
http://www.evo.co.uk/trackdays/features/237103/car...
Most trackday organisers prohibit timing because of insurance I think but don't most people secretly time themselves anyway? Having it organised must be a better option.
http://www.evo.co.uk/trackdays/features/237103/car...
Most trackday organisers prohibit timing because of insurance I think but don't most people secretly time themselves anyway? Having it organised must be a better option.
No I don't think timing should be allowed at trackdays. If you want timed laps, do a test day. If you want to put your own car on track under your road policy that will exclude timing plus the TDO's public liability insurance will forbit it too.
If you allow timing you just turn trackdays into test days. Keep the two things separate then people have a clear choice.
If you allow timing you just turn trackdays into test days. Keep the two things separate then people have a clear choice.
Aside from the insurance issues (both for the driver and the TDO), there's a good reason why test days are separated from track days.
On track days, you get all sorts of people turning up with a huge range of experience levels - from first-timers getting a taste of track driving, to guys (and girls) who've been turning up to the same circuits for years. If timing is allowed, it introduces that competitive element, and you'll get someone trying to show off to their mates or "prove a point", which can only end in tears (and possibly A&E).
AFAIK, you need a race license to participate in test days. At the very least, that guarantees a minimum level of knowledge, driving skills and risk awareness that some track day drivers may not have (due to a lack of experience and/or attitude).
On track days, you get all sorts of people turning up with a huge range of experience levels - from first-timers getting a taste of track driving, to guys (and girls) who've been turning up to the same circuits for years. If timing is allowed, it introduces that competitive element, and you'll get someone trying to show off to their mates or "prove a point", which can only end in tears (and possibly A&E).
AFAIK, you need a race license to participate in test days. At the very least, that guarantees a minimum level of knowledge, driving skills and risk awareness that some track day drivers may not have (due to a lack of experience and/or attitude).
I run an in-car video. If I want to see if/how I improved over the day, I can always watch the videos later and time my laps by using landmarks. Timing on track seems too risky to me, bearing in mind the purpose and format of trackdays. Having drivers aggressively pursuing lap times wouldn't be in the spirit of the thing.
most people tend to miss the biggest single reason - to deter race teams. as soon as you allow timing on track days, you'll have a paddock full of GT cars + full race team support, sports prototypes etc etc
thankfully, track days are next to useless for these guys at the moment - let's keep it that way please!
track days should be about leisure, not sport. as soon as you have a paid member of staff with you (ie a team) it ceases to become that. regardless of what horsesh!t many drivers come up with - if you're paying someone to be there with you, it's not just about having fun.
IMHO!
Jonny
BaT
thankfully, track days are next to useless for these guys at the moment - let's keep it that way please!
track days should be about leisure, not sport. as soon as you have a paid member of staff with you (ie a team) it ceases to become that. regardless of what horsesh!t many drivers come up with - if you're paying someone to be there with you, it's not just about having fun.
IMHO!
Jonny
BaT
chevin said:
I run an in-car video. If I want to see if/how I improved over the day, I can always watch the videos later and time my laps by using landmarks. Timing on track seems too risky to me, bearing in mind the purpose and format of trackdays. Having drivers aggressively pursuing lap times wouldn't be in the spirit of the thing.
I agree. I think most people who have done a few track days will confess to being timed or timing at one point or another.Personally speaking, when I knew I was "against the clock" I would push noticeably harder to get a good time and quote it at the end of the day. If you imagine a whole circuit of cars doing this you've got problems, and the day would just be plagued with stoppages.
With a video camera doing the job, in the back of your mind you are still looking for a good time to quote at a later date, but you also have to drive well for the video to show how good and smooth your lines are, so you tend to drive at your normal pace instead of "timed pace" if others are to see this video too.
Keep track days un-timed.
I think its definately a bad idea. Some of the reasons above are part of it,but Jonny has hit the nail on the head as far as I see it!
A number of years ago I did a trackday at Brands GP which was open pitlane. It was on a thursday or friday. The weekend had a ferrari race meet scheduled but there was no test day prior to this so there were numerous race teams/cars booked on the track day using it as a test day. The driving was totally out of order and it was generally chaotic! Other cars as well as the racers were being forced off the track,overtaking on both sides in very dodgy places and general bullying etc etc.
The TDO did nothing to sort out any problems even though there were numerous complaints etc. The TDO are no longer in business! No surprise I guess.
A number of years ago I did a trackday at Brands GP which was open pitlane. It was on a thursday or friday. The weekend had a ferrari race meet scheduled but there was no test day prior to this so there were numerous race teams/cars booked on the track day using it as a test day. The driving was totally out of order and it was generally chaotic! Other cars as well as the racers were being forced off the track,overtaking on both sides in very dodgy places and general bullying etc etc.
The TDO did nothing to sort out any problems even though there were numerous complaints etc. The TDO are no longer in business! No surprise I guess.
Data loggers are generally allowed so long as there is no live timing display visible to the driver. I use a Racelogic Pbox, and tend to just plug it in and stick it away somewhere, either in the glovebox or behing the seats, depending on which car I'm using. It's the same as videoing then, in that you can get a laptime off it, but not until the end of the day, after you've finished lapping.
I think only live timing is banned, where the drivers get to know what kind of times they have just done at the end of a lap. It certainly makes sense, as having such points of reference while you're in the car would just encourage silly risk-taking that is completely not within the spirit/idea of track days.
Retrospectively finding out how you did in a session, or after you get home (from data loggers and videos) doesn't add to that element of competition, and certainly TDOs can't be accused of allowing timing at the event and turning it into a test day.
I personally don't have a problem with race teams turning up with full pit crews and tweaking their cars, as long as the drivers do not drive aggressively, play by the same rules, not force others off the track etc. What I have found on track days is that even the simple task of swapping wheels over is so much easier when there are several pairs of hands helping out!
Even more so when you've got mechanical problems that need fixing in the paddock...and if you have to resort to the rent-a-friend scheme, so be it!
Retrospectively finding out how you did in a session, or after you get home (from data loggers and videos) doesn't add to that element of competition, and certainly TDOs can't be accused of allowing timing at the event and turning it into a test day.
I personally don't have a problem with race teams turning up with full pit crews and tweaking their cars, as long as the drivers do not drive aggressively, play by the same rules, not force others off the track etc. What I have found on track days is that even the simple task of swapping wheels over is so much easier when there are several pairs of hands helping out!
Even more so when you've got mechanical problems that need fixing in the paddock...and if you have to resort to the rent-a-friend scheme, so be it! Edited by A.Wang on Monday 22 June 21:03
No place for timing at all in my view. It changes the state of mind. Happy with teams being there, why not, provided they stick to the rules.
We had a 2cv enduro team in the next garage at a Snetterton track day last year, what a hoot!
We have 3 drivers to our 1 Radical and we do get competative between ourselves, but it's mostly in the nature of mickey taking.....I seeyou lost ground against that mini/elise/GT3/skoda....etc etc.
Mostly me losing ground I have to confess, but what the heck, I'm having fun!!
We had a 2cv enduro team in the next garage at a Snetterton track day last year, what a hoot!
We have 3 drivers to our 1 Radical and we do get competative between ourselves, but it's mostly in the nature of mickey taking.....I seeyou lost ground against that mini/elise/GT3/skoda....etc etc.
Mostly me losing ground I have to confess, but what the heck, I'm having fun!!
Generally folks here are saying no to timing, yet are at the same time describing how they currently do so with the aid of Data Logging and Videos - hmmmmm, so timings ok as long as its covert is it?
But lets clear up a little misunderstanding - these Carlin events are not track days as such, they are Driver Development events for those who want more from their track experiences and are willing to pay a premium for the privilege (I know this because I, just like Rog was who wrote the evo link, was at Bedford last week for its debut). What they offer over and above a track day is: very limited numbers along with live TSL timing and sensible overtaking rules - all of which allows people to learn without being hindered by the usual track day restrictions and traffic, something which has only really been available to date for those who hold a race licence (Carlin also ensures the cars used on the day have comparable performance - and its not open to race teams, likewise slicks are banned).
Something which many might not be aware of is, RMA’s club members have enjoyed the privilege of relaxed overtaking rules for some time now, yet we don’t hear their clients complaining about that freedom - for those like-minded souls approach it with responsible maturity, so there’s no reason why Carlin’s client base will be any different.
But lets clear up a little misunderstanding - these Carlin events are not track days as such, they are Driver Development events for those who want more from their track experiences and are willing to pay a premium for the privilege (I know this because I, just like Rog was who wrote the evo link, was at Bedford last week for its debut). What they offer over and above a track day is: very limited numbers along with live TSL timing and sensible overtaking rules - all of which allows people to learn without being hindered by the usual track day restrictions and traffic, something which has only really been available to date for those who hold a race licence (Carlin also ensures the cars used on the day have comparable performance - and its not open to race teams, likewise slicks are banned).
Something which many might not be aware of is, RMA’s club members have enjoyed the privilege of relaxed overtaking rules for some time now, yet we don’t hear their clients complaining about that freedom - for those like-minded souls approach it with responsible maturity, so there’s no reason why Carlin’s client base will be any different.
I don't consider video or datalogging to be 'covert timing'. I forget that my video is running, and never pay any attention to it while driving. I'm driving for me, not for the camera or any potential audience. 90% of what I shoot is only ever seen by me. It's simply a method for me to record the day so I can do a critical self-review later. Don't we go to trackdays so that we can learn better car control? Oh, and to have fun, of course.
I'm not familiar with those days at Bedford, but they seem to be a 'partner' to the more traditional track day and are all the better for that.
I think the issue of timing is one of immediacy. I think the suggestion that timing by logging or video is covert is a little harsh, or at least the suggestion that it is done to check timing is harsh. We don't video. If we did, I'd like to review my runs and sure, I'd be interested to see what time I was doing. That's only going to be of interest to me. We are not on track every week and visit different circuits. If I saw what I lapped Snetterton in during may it would serve no use at all when I was at Goodwood this week, or Brands in a few weeks.
However, if I new straightaway what my times were, i would naturally seek to better those. I'm then focussing on times rather than lines and of course mirrors!
That leads to the comment about RMA days. We have done a lot of those and yes, you can overtake left or right. The standard of driving is generally high and it works well. However, I've also done days where more freedom in overtaking would be a disaster!
At any track day there are large speed differentials and it is encumbent on the part of the slower drivers to watch mirrors. Even at Goodwood Monday, with 5 cars on the track, we had an incident where one of my chums moved to pass when a slower car made a positive move to the right, they then moved back on line shutting the door so to speak.
The new discs on the Radical got a good test and no harm done, and the chap apologised saying that the mirrors in his car aren't so good. No harm done, but it goes to show how you can make no assumptions.
I fully support those who want to improve their performance and running against the clock at somewhere like Bedford is, I would think, a brilliant way to do it.
However, loads of nutters with big turbos and bigger egos trying to shave a second or two at Brands makes me shudder!!
My problem is that I have a track day on a Monday, and I can't stop thinking about it all week! getting no bloomin work done!
xxx
I think the issue of timing is one of immediacy. I think the suggestion that timing by logging or video is covert is a little harsh, or at least the suggestion that it is done to check timing is harsh. We don't video. If we did, I'd like to review my runs and sure, I'd be interested to see what time I was doing. That's only going to be of interest to me. We are not on track every week and visit different circuits. If I saw what I lapped Snetterton in during may it would serve no use at all when I was at Goodwood this week, or Brands in a few weeks.
However, if I new straightaway what my times were, i would naturally seek to better those. I'm then focussing on times rather than lines and of course mirrors!
That leads to the comment about RMA days. We have done a lot of those and yes, you can overtake left or right. The standard of driving is generally high and it works well. However, I've also done days where more freedom in overtaking would be a disaster!
At any track day there are large speed differentials and it is encumbent on the part of the slower drivers to watch mirrors. Even at Goodwood Monday, with 5 cars on the track, we had an incident where one of my chums moved to pass when a slower car made a positive move to the right, they then moved back on line shutting the door so to speak.
The new discs on the Radical got a good test and no harm done, and the chap apologised saying that the mirrors in his car aren't so good. No harm done, but it goes to show how you can make no assumptions.
I fully support those who want to improve their performance and running against the clock at somewhere like Bedford is, I would think, a brilliant way to do it.
However, loads of nutters with big turbos and bigger egos trying to shave a second or two at Brands makes me shudder!!
My problem is that I have a track day on a Monday, and I can't stop thinking about it all week! getting no bloomin work done!
xxx
I think there is a big difference between live timing and recording your day to watch when you get home.
With live timing you can see your time after each lap / session, then change something and do more laps to see the improvement in lap time, videoing doesn`t do that.
We`re not racing drivers, we are people having fun driving quickly and safely on a track, Live timing wouldn`t improve my experience of that at all.
With live timing you can see your time after each lap / session, then change something and do more laps to see the improvement in lap time, videoing doesn`t do that.
We`re not racing drivers, we are people having fun driving quickly and safely on a track, Live timing wouldn`t improve my experience of that at all.
Choice is a wonderful thing - some people choose to attend track days with mixed driver abilities along with a right old mix of cars - others however prefer owners club organised events where the cars are similar and those attending have a common interest. Airfield events offer cheap fun - whereas others prefer to pay a premium for events run on premier circuits. Some cough-up substantial sums to be an RMA club member so they can reap the benefits of overtaking on either side etc. and finally, there are those that will pay a premium to attend events that additionally have organised timing, the participating cars all having comparable performance and an uncluttered track in the pursuit of driver development.
These Carlin events certainly won’t suit everybody, likewise they won’t suit the majority of cars used on general track days either. It’s a niche product for those that want to develop their track driving (and have fun doing so), and have access to a suitable car (or the wherewithal to hire one), simple as that.
These Carlin events certainly won’t suit everybody, likewise they won’t suit the majority of cars used on general track days either. It’s a niche product for those that want to develop their track driving (and have fun doing so), and have access to a suitable car (or the wherewithal to hire one), simple as that.
jleroux said:
as soon as you have a paid member of staff with you (ie a team) it ceases to become that. regardless of what horsesh!t many drivers come up with - if you're paying someone to be there with you, it's not just about having fun.
IMHO!
Jonny
BaT
Whilst I completely agree timing shouldn't be allowed on track days, I take issue with your comment here Jonny. I couldn't have the fun I had with my Juno at Spa in March if I hadn't paid for the support. Because I am a mechanical numpty IMHO!
Jonny
BaT
Having somebody else take care of the car meant I could relax and enjoy it ... I had much more fun than when I used to spanner my Radical myselfGassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff