Have Mclaren got the design team to get it right?
Discussion
Having watched Lewis and Kovi wrestle with their wayward cars yet again today i wonder if Mclaren have got the right people to design a fast car again or has Adrians leaving caught up with them at last.
I believe last years car as was the 2007 car very much based on Neweys original design and were right on the money.
Or maybe its just the wider chassis to get the KERS in is preventing them getting the same downforce as the others.
To be fair Ferrari seems to have made a better job so far.
Hopefully the upgrade for Germany will prove me wrong.
I believe last years car as was the 2007 car very much based on Neweys original design and were right on the money.
Or maybe its just the wider chassis to get the KERS in is preventing them getting the same downforce as the others.
To be fair Ferrari seems to have made a better job so far.
Hopefully the upgrade for Germany will prove me wrong.
I would not know whether the people whom they have now are the right ones.
It cannot have helped that they poured so much effort last year into developing the '08 car down to the final race, as the work on this year's car would mostly have been done over the same period.
Also, it could not have helped that, for last year's budget, they had $100M stolen from them. Yes, they were left still with a bigger budget than half the other teams had, but you can't whack a quarter out of any programme without creating discontinuities and causing problems.
It cannot have helped that they poured so much effort last year into developing the '08 car down to the final race, as the work on this year's car would mostly have been done over the same period.
Also, it could not have helped that, for last year's budget, they had $100M stolen from them. Yes, they were left still with a bigger budget than half the other teams had, but you can't whack a quarter out of any programme without creating discontinuities and causing problems.
The biggest difficulty the teams are facing is the lack of track time to test developments.
No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
groomi said:
The biggest difficulty the teams are facing is the lack of track time to test developments.
No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
So much for wind tunnels, CFD and simulation, eh?No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
flemke said:
groomi said:
The biggest difficulty the teams are facing is the lack of track time to test developments.
No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
So much for wind tunnels, CFD and simulation, eh?No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
flemke said:
groomi said:
The biggest difficulty the teams are facing is the lack of track time to test developments.
No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
So much for wind tunnels, CFD and simulation, eh?No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
The mclaren just isnt quick enough and I dont think tweaking is going to sort it.
I started a thread a while ago asking the same question. For the last few years Ive got the impression, like you, that their cars over the last few years have just been refinements of adrians original car. Now theyve had to design a new car from the ground up theyve been found wanting and theyll need to go back to the start as this car isnt a sound platform to add developments too.
Holst said:
flemke said:
groomi said:
The biggest difficulty the teams are facing is the lack of track time to test developments.
No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
So much for wind tunnels, CFD and simulation, eh?No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
flemke said:
Holst said:
flemke said:
groomi said:
The biggest difficulty the teams are facing is the lack of track time to test developments.
No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
So much for wind tunnels, CFD and simulation, eh?No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
McLaren are in a catch-22 right now; given their current position in the constructors ch'ship, I'd be thinking about 'doing a Honda' and turning all efforts to next years challenger, but until all of F1's political in-fighting is settled and the 2010 rules are set in stone, starting work on next years car isn't an option. I think that the 2008 titles going down to the wire has really put McLaren on the back foot, Ferrari also, but Ferrari do seem to making in-roads with their cars performance.
Jarama79 said:
flemke said:
Holst said:
flemke said:
groomi said:
The biggest difficulty the teams are facing is the lack of track time to test developments.
No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
So much for wind tunnels, CFD and simulation, eh?No team has really made any significant gains since the start of the season, which suggests that no matter how good your facilities or how big you budget, no track time makes it nigh on impossible to catch up.
flemke said:
Jarama79 said:
RBR started with a fundamentally excellent chassis, as you'd expect from Adrian Newey. A big part of their advances in the '09 season has been their adoption of the double-diffuser, Shirley?
No doubt they have been successful in adopting the DD, but was their car not the best of the non-DDs from the off, and in fact competitive with the DDs before it had one of its own?Dunit said:
Having watched Lewis and Kovi wrestle with their wayward cars yet again today i wonder if Mclaren have got the right people to design a fast car again or has Adrians leaving caught up with them at last.
I believe last years car as was the 2007 car very much based on Neweys original design and were right on the money.
Or maybe its just the wider chassis to get the KERS in is preventing them getting the same downforce as the others.
To be fair Ferrari seems to have made a better job so far.
Hopefully the upgrade for Germany will prove me wrong.
As far as Newey having a significant influence on the '07/'08 Mclaren cars, I don't think it would have been possible. Maybe his approach to a problem, priorities, or philosophy hung around, but it wouldn't have been enough to design and develop a championship car. The talent Mclaren had in '07/'08, I think, were responsible for the quick cars. If we want to see how long one man's work lasts in F1, it seems to be about two or three races, if that. Mclaren's '06 car was most likely the last one with Newey's fingerprints just because he helped prioritize the major parts of the package. When he left Williams they had a good '97, but in '98 were out of the championship race right away. I don't think that Newey's influence would've lasted much past '06. I believe last years car as was the 2007 car very much based on Neweys original design and were right on the money.
Or maybe its just the wider chassis to get the KERS in is preventing them getting the same downforce as the others.
To be fair Ferrari seems to have made a better job so far.
Hopefully the upgrade for Germany will prove me wrong.
Mclaren's '09 season seems to have the mark of a team that had the wrong performance priorities or a problem with the wind-tunnel. We've seen teams in the past just get the engineering compromises wrong. They thought direction A was gonna pay-off, and it ended up being B. Ferrari-2005 and their tire strategy, Renault and their wide angle engine, Ferrari this year. All had precpitous drops because of a wrong engineering decision. Then there's the wind-tunnel problem, which hit Renault in '07, Honda '07, and Williams at the beginning of '04; again, all were successful in the year prior only to stumble because of poor wind data. A tunnel problem seems to be likely as Mclaren were running with flow-vis and all manner of air-pressure guages during pre-season testing, and looked desperate for any new data to confirm what their diffuser and wings were doing.
This may be where Ferrari have the advantage over Mclaren currently. If Ferrari are getting good data from their wind-tunnel, then they'd only be suffering from their bad engineering compromises but still be able to make steps forward faster than if they needed time to re-calibrate.
It could also be the case that Mclaren have both going on, hence the back of the grid, instead of merely midfield, pace.
As far as Mclaren having the right people, I don't think there's any reason to doubt they can turn it around. It's one of the interesting things about F1, good teams can still mess it up, and one can't just "die and stamp" success.
Edited by 35secToNuvolari on Monday 22 June 08:45
Jarama79 said:
McLaren are in a catch-22 right now; given their current position in the constructors ch'ship, I'd be thinking about 'doing a Honda' and turning all efforts to next years challenger, but until all of F1's political in-fighting is settled and the 2010 rules are set in stone, starting work on next years car isn't an option.
I'm sure Martin Whitmarsh said at the weekend that McLaren have already spent a month working on next years car.I see the problem less in "have they got the right people in the design team" & more "have they got the right people leading the team?"
The answer is, no & it's not the 1st time that team has suffered when Ron has wandered off to look at something else.
Ok, it's unfair to lay all the blame at Whitmarsh's feet so I won't. However Ron is badly missed.
The answer is, no & it's not the 1st time that team has suffered when Ron has wandered off to look at something else.
Ok, it's unfair to lay all the blame at Whitmarsh's feet so I won't. However Ron is badly missed.
I can't help feeling that RD taking a backseat to focus on McLaren cars is having an effect too.
It's been discussed before how successful teams tend to be the result of a patriarchal management style. It's one of the reasons (IMHO) that Toyota has struggled, as decisions tend to be more committee led.
It's been discussed before how successful teams tend to be the result of a patriarchal management style. It's one of the reasons (IMHO) that Toyota has struggled, as decisions tend to be more committee led.
flatfour1 said:
You have to bear in mind Mclaren tend to hand the project management baton to different engineering team members year on year. Some have done a better job than others. That's life
Iirc the design team that conceived the '09 car (led by Paddy Lowe) is the same team that produced the very successful '07 car.
This year is undoubtedly worsened by the development needed to secure Lewis' '08 WDC. I would imagine that a lot of early wind tunnel time was lost.
IMHO McLaren decided to take the aero to extremes with the front suspension, very much at the expense of mechanical grip. Look at the front pushrod angles, iirc they are the most extreme on the grid this year.
In contrast, the Brawn cars have a much more forgiving geometry on the front and they can use their tyres well and still produce good aero.
Just my opinion and I freely admit that I have never designed an F1 car and probably couldn't do as good a job.
35secToNuvolari said:
Dunit said:
Having watched Lewis and Kovi wrestle with their wayward cars yet again today i wonder if Mclaren have got the right people to design a fast car again or has Adrians leaving caught up with them at last.
I believe last years car as was the 2007 car very much based on Neweys original design and were right on the money.
Or maybe its just the wider chassis to get the KERS in is preventing them getting the same downforce as the others.
To be fair Ferrari seems to have made a better job so far.
Hopefully the upgrade for Germany will prove me wrong.
As far as Newey having a significant influence on the '07/'08 Mclaren cars, I don't think it would have been possible. Maybe his approach to a problem, priorities, or philosophy hung around, but it wouldn't have been enough to design and develop a championship car. The talent Mclaren had in '07/'08, I think, were responsible for the quick cars. If we want to see how long one man's work lasts in F1, it seems to be about two or three races, if that. Mclaren's '06 car was most likely the last one with Newey's fingerprints just because he helped prioritize the major parts of the package. When he left Williams they had a good '97, but in '98 were out of the championship race right away. I don't think that Newey's influence would've lasted much past '06. I believe last years car as was the 2007 car very much based on Neweys original design and were right on the money.
Or maybe its just the wider chassis to get the KERS in is preventing them getting the same downforce as the others.
To be fair Ferrari seems to have made a better job so far.
Hopefully the upgrade for Germany will prove me wrong.
Mclaren's '09 season seems to have the mark of a team that had the wrong performance priorities or a problem with the wind-tunnel. We've seen teams in the past just get the engineering compromises wrong. They thought direction A was gonna pay-off, and it ended up being B. Ferrari-2005 and their tire strategy, Renault and their wide angle engine, Ferrari this year. All had precpitous drops because of a wrong engineering decision. Then there's the wind-tunnel problem, which hit Renault in '07, Honda '07, and Williams at the beginning of '04; again, all were successful in the year prior only to stumble because of poor wind data. A tunnel problem seems to be likely as Mclaren were running with flow-vis and all manner of air-pressure guages during pre-season testing, and looked desperate for any new data to confirm what their diffuser and wings were doing.
This may be where Ferrari have the advantage over Mclaren currently. If Ferrari are getting good data from their wind-tunnel, then they'd only be suffering from their bad engineering compromises but still be able to make steps forward faster than if they needed time to re-calibrate.
It could also be the case that Mclaren have both going on, hence the back of the grid, instead of merely midfield, pace.
As far as Mclaren having the right people, I don't think there's any reason to doubt they can turn it around. It's one of the interesting things about F1, good teams can still mess it up, and one can't just "die and stamp" success.
Edited by 35secToNuvolari on Monday 22 June 08:45
McLaren have some very sophisticated software for modelling tyre deformation and realised before the season started that changes needed to be made to account for the running condition compared to static.
AlexS said:
Didn't Renault also get caught out by the change in the tyres and the fact that Bridgestones deformed much more than the Michelins which had substantial affect the aero behaviour.
McLaren have some very sophisticated software for modelling tyre deformation and realised before the season started that changes needed to be made to account for the running condition compared to static.
Yes, you're right. Renault admitted to having problems with the aero effect of the tires as well. Bob Bell or Pat Symonds also said in an interview that their tunnel, which had been like a good, faithful girlfriend in '05 and '06, started lying to them, giving them inaccurate data.McLaren have some very sophisticated software for modelling tyre deformation and realised before the season started that changes needed to be made to account for the running condition compared to static.
Jarama79 said:
RBR started with a fundamentally excellent chassis, as you'd expect from Adrian Newey.
Wasn't the McLaren MP4/18, that never actually raced because it was too unreliable/uncompetitive, designed whilst Adrian Newey was at McLaren?The point is, everybody, whether an individual or a team, gets it wrong occasionally - McLaren have built one of those for this season.
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