Discussion
Why was there so little overtaking at silverstone? There was a big difference in the relative speeds of the cars but the supposed new measures to help overtaking seemed to be having little effect. I don't buy the excuse that silverstone is difficult to overtake on because I've seen some great manoevres there in the past and that was with cars which were trying to make passing more difficult!
Well apparently Silverstone is a bit notoriously difficult to overtake on in an F1 car. But as you say i'm not exactly sure why.
Regarding overtaking in general, it appears the rule changes for 2009 have allowed trailing cars to follow much closer than 2008 but still the aero is still not good enough to overtake.
Also these new fangled diffusers have been blamed for upsetting airflow for the trailing cars too.
The bottom line seems to be that once F1 cars get very close to eachother, they still have bugger all grip to perform half decent overtakes.
Wider cars with fatter tyres (for mechanical grip) and diddy spoilers are the way to go. Or not.
Regarding overtaking in general, it appears the rule changes for 2009 have allowed trailing cars to follow much closer than 2008 but still the aero is still not good enough to overtake.
Also these new fangled diffusers have been blamed for upsetting airflow for the trailing cars too.
The bottom line seems to be that once F1 cars get very close to eachother, they still have bugger all grip to perform half decent overtakes.
Wider cars with fatter tyres (for mechanical grip) and diddy spoilers are the way to go. Or not.
Bottom line has nothiing to do with aero. Reliance on downforce has been at a sufficiently high level since the early 80's for a cars wake to reduce the following cars downforce by a similar amount to today.
No, the bottom line is the cars are too similar. F1 used to have heavy cars, light cars, small cars, big cars, fast accelerating cars, high top speed cars, sharper braking cars, nimble cars, stable cars etc. etc. Once upon a time it would be very rare for one car to be quickest on all points of the circuit.
Until we have an end to such restrictive dimensional and numerical driven regulation, then we won't have overtaking.
No, the bottom line is the cars are too similar. F1 used to have heavy cars, light cars, small cars, big cars, fast accelerating cars, high top speed cars, sharper braking cars, nimble cars, stable cars etc. etc. Once upon a time it would be very rare for one car to be quickest on all points of the circuit.
Until we have an end to such restrictive dimensional and numerical driven regulation, then we won't have overtaking.
groomi said:
Bottom line has nothiing to do with aero. Reliance on downforce has been at a sufficiently high level since the early 80's for a cars wake to reduce the following cars downforce by a similar amount to today.
No, the bottom line is the cars are too similar. F1 used to have heavy cars, light cars, small cars, big cars, fast accelerating cars, high top speed cars, sharper braking cars, nimble cars, stable cars etc. etc. Once upon a time it would be very rare for one car to be quickest on all points of the circuit.
Until we have an end to such restrictive dimensional and numerical driven regulation, then we won't have overtaking.
I think nowadays F1 teams are far more sophisticated in terms of optimising the car design around the given technical restrictions. As a result, there is a much smaller difference in lap time and hence the relative speed difference between cars. All of which makes overtaking difficult, unless tyre wear or fuel load create an artificial disparity in speed. No, the bottom line is the cars are too similar. F1 used to have heavy cars, light cars, small cars, big cars, fast accelerating cars, high top speed cars, sharper braking cars, nimble cars, stable cars etc. etc. Once upon a time it would be very rare for one car to be quickest on all points of the circuit.
Until we have an end to such restrictive dimensional and numerical driven regulation, then we won't have overtaking.
I totally agree that the regs are to blame, there is no scope for variations in approaches to car design. We saw some variations this year, particularly the Red Bull, but there needs to be a lot more.
Well there was Fisichella's wicked overtaking maneuver on a BMW and a Renault through stowe. A very good maneuver!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula...
at 1:40
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula...
at 1:40
im really surprised at you lot-
why there was no overtaking, overtaking requires the following-
long straights, to slipstream past the car infront.(Hanger straight isn't that long)
heavy braking areas, to outbrake the car infront and maybe get up the inside or force the guy infront to make a mistake.
speed difference.
that's just 3 things, none of which are present at Silverstone.
why there was no overtaking, overtaking requires the following-
long straights, to slipstream past the car infront.(Hanger straight isn't that long)
heavy braking areas, to outbrake the car infront and maybe get up the inside or force the guy infront to make a mistake.
speed difference.
that's just 3 things, none of which are present at Silverstone.
stew-S160 said:
im really surprised at you lot-
why there was no overtaking, overtaking requires the following-
long straights, to slipstream past the car infront.(Hanger straight isn't that long)
heavy braking areas, to outbrake the car infront and maybe get up the inside or force the guy infront to make a mistake.
speed difference.
that's just 3 things, none of which are present at Silverstone.
What Nonsense - overtaking has taken place at Silverstone for years. Watch Raikonen on 23 seconds in the above click. Lewis did Kimi and Webber last year on the first lap. Remember 2003 when the whole race was full of overtaking manouvers after the safety car disapeared - again it was Kimi i think. Some of the nonsense thats being posted about not being able to overtake at Silverstone is nonsense.why there was no overtaking, overtaking requires the following-
long straights, to slipstream past the car infront.(Hanger straight isn't that long)
heavy braking areas, to outbrake the car infront and maybe get up the inside or force the guy infront to make a mistake.
speed difference.
that's just 3 things, none of which are present at Silverstone.
Wanta996Gotta said:
stew-S160 said:
im really surprised at you lot-
why there was no overtaking, overtaking requires the following-
long straights, to slipstream past the car infront.(Hanger straight isn't that long)
heavy braking areas, to outbrake the car infront and maybe get up the inside or force the guy infront to make a mistake.
speed difference.
that's just 3 things, none of which are present at Silverstone.
What Nonsense - overtaking has taken place at Silverstone for years. Watch Raikonen on 23 seconds in the above click. Lewis did Kimi and Webber last year on the first lap. Remember 2003 when the whole race was full of overtaking manouvers after the safety car disapeared - again it was Kimi i think. Some of the nonsense thats being posted about not being able to overtake at Silverstone is nonsense.why there was no overtaking, overtaking requires the following-
long straights, to slipstream past the car infront.(Hanger straight isn't that long)
heavy braking areas, to outbrake the car infront and maybe get up the inside or force the guy infront to make a mistake.
speed difference.
that's just 3 things, none of which are present at Silverstone.
Edited by mattikake on Thursday 25th June 09:57
team underdog said:
groomi said:
Bottom line has nothiing to do with aero. Reliance on downforce has been at a sufficiently high level since the early 80's for a cars wake to reduce the following cars downforce by a similar amount to today.
No, the bottom line is the cars are too similar. F1 used to have heavy cars, light cars, small cars, big cars, fast accelerating cars, high top speed cars, sharper braking cars, nimble cars, stable cars etc. etc. Once upon a time it would be very rare for one car to be quickest on all points of the circuit.
Until we have an end to such restrictive dimensional and numerical driven regulation, then we won't have overtaking.
I think nowadays F1 teams are far more sophisticated in terms of optimising the car design around the given technical restrictions. As a result, there is a much smaller difference in lap time and hence the relative speed difference between cars. All of which makes overtaking difficult, unless tyre wear or fuel load create an artificial disparity in speed. No, the bottom line is the cars are too similar. F1 used to have heavy cars, light cars, small cars, big cars, fast accelerating cars, high top speed cars, sharper braking cars, nimble cars, stable cars etc. etc. Once upon a time it would be very rare for one car to be quickest on all points of the circuit.
Until we have an end to such restrictive dimensional and numerical driven regulation, then we won't have overtaking.
I totally agree that the regs are to blame, there is no scope for variations in approaches to car design. We saw some variations this year, particularly the Red Bull, but there needs to be a lot more.
F1 has the worlds best drivers though, with telemetry systems, most of them are going to get very similar lap times in similar cars. And the pool of driving standard has always been getting bigger.
But you can still see the cars aren't able to follow as closely in corners as 20 years ago, when they still had big wings.
So if I were in control, first I would be putting flat bottomed cars on the grid, still with a 10mm wooden plank, but flat bottomed. The change for the 1995 season was pretty much where overtaking ceased (although it did turn out to be a pretty exceptional season in terms of the mix up, suddenly it became even harder to follow the guy infront).
Second, I would ban telemetry systems for drivers and teams, and put car setup and laptimes back into the relms of a talent not technicality, science or engineering precision, as a sport should be. Not as a studiable line graph as it is now. A natural feel for the best setup and best lap that drivers used to have to deal with. It's a real boys and men separator and the best drivers I have no doubt will be allowed shine more. It should create more variation between drivers and circuit to circuit too.
Edited by mattikake on Thursday 25th June 10:01
I have not heard any driver comment about the effects of the 6 degrees in front wing when following a car. This, and KERS, were supposed to be the big breakthrough in overtaking, yet it has never been mentioned.
I suspect that the biggest problem is actually the current front tyre width and they are being reduced for next year.
I suspect that the biggest problem is actually the current front tyre width and they are being reduced for next year.
stew-S160 said:
im really surprised at you lot-
why there was no overtaking, overtaking requires the following-
long straights, to slipstream past the car infront.(Hanger straight isn't that long)
heavy braking areas, to outbrake the car infront and maybe get up the inside or force the guy infront to make a mistake.
speed difference.
that's just 3 things, none of which are present at Silverstone.
Hanger is plenty long enough, the problem is the entry and exit. Stowe use to be much tighter bend, hence more braking and more over taking there in the early 90s for example. why there was no overtaking, overtaking requires the following-
long straights, to slipstream past the car infront.(Hanger straight isn't that long)
heavy braking areas, to outbrake the car infront and maybe get up the inside or force the guy infront to make a mistake.
speed difference.
that's just 3 things, none of which are present at Silverstone.
Other problem is beckets coming into hanger, although i never want to see them changed, having a series of high speed bends before the straight stops cars getting close to each other.
rdjohn said:
I have not heard any driver comment about the effects of the 6 degrees in front wing when following a car. This, and KERS, were supposed to be the big breakthrough in overtaking, yet it has never been mentioned.
I suspect that the biggest problem is actually the current front tyre width and they are being reduced for next year.
Indeed little has been said about the wings, at the start of the season i believe we did see more overtaking but 2 things have happened.I suspect that the biggest problem is actually the current front tyre width and they are being reduced for next year.
1) aero development, meaning the car works the air harder over it, leaving dirty air behind, making it harder to follow.
2) people stopped using kers. No doubt this aided a few moves at the start of the season.
Give the drivers back a clutch and a manual shift which means they are more likely to make mistakes e.g. lock up on down change etc As has been said teh rules are so tight that the cars are very equal in terms of overall lap time but also ability on each aspect of the track eg similar top speeds, similiar braking, similar downforce. Perhaps teams should be give option of running more revs or more wing over the weekend so there are some teams fast down straights and some faster on high downforce sections. I know that teams do this anyway i.e. compromise one over the other but if this could be "exaggerated" somehow then that would be good.
Hang on! Is this not leading to Max's 2 rule F1 that he was trying to bring in based on budget?!
Hang on! Is this not leading to Max's 2 rule F1 that he was trying to bring in based on budget?!
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