First BEC advice needed!
Discussion
Hi guys, I'm looking for a little advice...
I'm going to buy my first BEC seven soon and I'm looking at (hopefully) a megabusa. This is my first kit car and I just wondered if there's anything in particular I should look out for?
I have read that blade and R1 powered cars are a cheaper alternative but I'm worried that I'll soon become bored of the power... I have ridden superbikes for the last 15 years and tend to adapt to more powerful engines very quickly and I do get bored quite easily! If I'm going to spend big dollar (and to me anything over 5k is quite big) then I want something I can be sure I'm not going to become bored of too quickly.
I have read a lot of the forums regarding 'which is better BEC or CEC' and am firmly convinced that a BEC is what I'm after... I have developed carpal tunnel/RSI as a result of too long working on a keyboard so I just can't physically ride bikes the way I know I can... Rather than ride at 7/10ths I've decided to sell the bikes and get the next best thing. Please note I'm not trying to start a 'CEC or BEC' discussion here!!
Having said all that I would consider a smaller engined BEC if it came up at the right price, it seems there are no end of R1 and blade engined MK Indys that have sold (recently?) on PH for around 5-6k, at the moment I can't find a decent looking one with a late engine for under 7 or 8k. Bad timing on my part perhaps but if I'm looking at spending 7 or 8k I might as well push the boat out and aim for the busa. As I only have around 10k to play with perhaps I'm aiming a little high...
Any comments on this one:
http://pistonheads.com/sales/1099888.htm
It doesn't seem to be a 'genuine' busa chassis, is this a problem? What are the differences? Anything look wrong with this to you guys? Any busa engined owners out there with gems of wisdom to share? Are all factory built westie busas' baffled/dry sumped? Is this a problem on this engine? I would think oil surge/starvation is a problem on any engine but I understand some motors are more prone to it and others 'get away with it' by overfilling - I don't really like this idea!
Anyway, sorry to throw so many questions in at once but here is another! Could anyone give me some idea of what the insurance may cost for one of these (or similar)? Is the insurance on the busa massively different to say an R1 powered Indy? I'm 35, six points (2 x SP30), I don't have any no claims as I have fleet insurance but I haven't claimed on any insurance for the last 5 years. I have a couple of years NCD on a bike but I'm sure that doesn't mean anything to car insurers
Well, that's enough rambling from me... Any and all advice appreciated!
Cheers
Max
I'm going to buy my first BEC seven soon and I'm looking at (hopefully) a megabusa. This is my first kit car and I just wondered if there's anything in particular I should look out for?
I have read that blade and R1 powered cars are a cheaper alternative but I'm worried that I'll soon become bored of the power... I have ridden superbikes for the last 15 years and tend to adapt to more powerful engines very quickly and I do get bored quite easily! If I'm going to spend big dollar (and to me anything over 5k is quite big) then I want something I can be sure I'm not going to become bored of too quickly.
I have read a lot of the forums regarding 'which is better BEC or CEC' and am firmly convinced that a BEC is what I'm after... I have developed carpal tunnel/RSI as a result of too long working on a keyboard so I just can't physically ride bikes the way I know I can... Rather than ride at 7/10ths I've decided to sell the bikes and get the next best thing. Please note I'm not trying to start a 'CEC or BEC' discussion here!!
Having said all that I would consider a smaller engined BEC if it came up at the right price, it seems there are no end of R1 and blade engined MK Indys that have sold (recently?) on PH for around 5-6k, at the moment I can't find a decent looking one with a late engine for under 7 or 8k. Bad timing on my part perhaps but if I'm looking at spending 7 or 8k I might as well push the boat out and aim for the busa. As I only have around 10k to play with perhaps I'm aiming a little high...
Any comments on this one:
http://pistonheads.com/sales/1099888.htm
It doesn't seem to be a 'genuine' busa chassis, is this a problem? What are the differences? Anything look wrong with this to you guys? Any busa engined owners out there with gems of wisdom to share? Are all factory built westie busas' baffled/dry sumped? Is this a problem on this engine? I would think oil surge/starvation is a problem on any engine but I understand some motors are more prone to it and others 'get away with it' by overfilling - I don't really like this idea!
Anyway, sorry to throw so many questions in at once but here is another! Could anyone give me some idea of what the insurance may cost for one of these (or similar)? Is the insurance on the busa massively different to say an R1 powered Indy? I'm 35, six points (2 x SP30), I don't have any no claims as I have fleet insurance but I haven't claimed on any insurance for the last 5 years. I have a couple of years NCD on a bike but I'm sure that doesn't mean anything to car insurers
Well, that's enough rambling from me... Any and all advice appreciated!
Cheers
Max
You will probobly pay between £300 and £500 fully comp, try Adrian Flux as not many kit car insurers cover BECs, only 2 or 3. You can get insurance cheaper, but it sometimes has ridiculous mileage limits ect. I have about 6,000 miles on my policy which is plenty.
As for Busa, never had one. 2 things to consider though, around a track a good R1 car may be faster than a badly executed Busa, (not just engines, chassis spec and aero makes a difference) so just do not buy a car because it is cheap and has Hayabusa power. Also there is only maybe a second or two between a blade car and a busa around a track, so do not discount lesser powered cars until you have experienced them. A good driver can remove that gap, remember too you have 3-400bhp-per-ton and absolutely no driver aids, an 893cc blade car is more than enough for many people. Good luck finding a car, £10k should get you a really nice one.
As for Busa, never had one. 2 things to consider though, around a track a good R1 car may be faster than a badly executed Busa, (not just engines, chassis spec and aero makes a difference) so just do not buy a car because it is cheap and has Hayabusa power. Also there is only maybe a second or two between a blade car and a busa around a track, so do not discount lesser powered cars until you have experienced them. A good driver can remove that gap, remember too you have 3-400bhp-per-ton and absolutely no driver aids, an 893cc blade car is more than enough for many people. Good luck finding a car, £10k should get you a really nice one.
Thanks for the advice Lee, the insurance figures sound very reasonable if I can get somewhere near those fully comp I'll be happy 
I thought that an R1 powered car would probably be enough but they do seem thin on the ground (for a late, injected engine) and the prices aren't that far off busa territory at the moment. I'm also hoping that the extra torque of the busa will translate into a 'slightly more relaxed' road experience, not that I'm expecting this car to be in any way relaxing! I'm sure on the track the difference between a blade/R1/busa is not that great, I was really just thinking that given the cost difference and (hopefully) less frenzied engine manners on the road, it would make more sense to go the extra mile and aim for a busa...
Thanks again for the advice.
Cheers
Max
I thought that an R1 powered car would probably be enough but they do seem thin on the ground (for a late, injected engine) and the prices aren't that far off busa territory at the moment. I'm also hoping that the extra torque of the busa will translate into a 'slightly more relaxed' road experience, not that I'm expecting this car to be in any way relaxing! I'm sure on the track the difference between a blade/R1/busa is not that great, I was really just thinking that given the cost difference and (hopefully) less frenzied engine manners on the road, it would make more sense to go the extra mile and aim for a busa...
Thanks again for the advice.
Cheers
Max
Maxey said:
I thought that an R1 powered car would probably be enough but they do seem thin on the ground (for a late, injected engine) and the prices aren't that far off busa territory at the moment. I'm also hoping that the extra torque of the busa will translate into a 'slightly more relaxed' road experience, not that I'm expecting this car to be in any way relaxing! I'm sure on the track the difference between a blade/R1/busa is not that great, I was really just thinking that given the cost difference and (hopefully) less frenzied engine manners on the road, it would make more sense to go the extra mile and aim for a busa...
Hi Max,I have a Busa powered Fury and race against R1/Blade litre powered cars. The performance is pretty similar and differences between the cars and drivers are of more significance than the engine output.
You're right that the Busa power/torque delivery suits the car install, lots of grunt, easy to get it off the line and I rarely need to use second gear apart from the tightest hairpins. Having said that the Busa'a relatively heavy and it still attracts a premium so is relatively expensive. I don't think anyone would recommend running a Busa without a dry sump which adds more expense, weight and complexity.
In terms of actual BHP the R1 and later Blade motors are putting out almost as much as the Busa and are lighter and cheaper - you can get away with baffled sumps with both of them. However you need to rev the nuts off them - not saying that's a bad thing, the mentalness of shifting at 12-13,000rpm has a certain appeal
The Busa's relatively under-stressed and is pretty much bomb-proof. The litre engines are less so and the racers will regard them as a consumable although they usually expect to get a couple of seasons out of an engine. That's probably for ever for a road car - you're unlikely to drive at full throttle for >50% of the time on the road.
In terms of road manners the diff gearing will have a significant bearing - I've got a 3.14 which means I've got a top speed of just under 140 and at 90 it's doing about 7,000 rpm. 3.14 Sierra diffs are hard to come by, most have either a 3.36 or 3.62. I think the Westies use a Freelander diff which is 3.21 IIRC, not quite as strong as a Sierra but quite adequate.
Yet another factor is whether you plan any modifications - there are masses of options for the Busa, big bore kits, stronger rods, turbo kits etc.
HTH
Be careful when looking at very new model year engine installations, some have issues with alternator output being low meaning you will flatten the battery driving at night, and also gearing issues, some bikes have gear ratios not very suitable to putting in a car. Massivly long first gears are the main worry, 75 mph in first ect. I can only advise R1 wise, but the 2003 R1 injection engine is a cracking non-hayabusa motor to put in a car, just needs a baffled sump and you are away. Gearing is great too with just a regular Sierra diff giving 130+ mph, mine does something like 57mph in first and 76mph in second which is ideal. Get yourself to a local meet and have a look / ride in a few. A Hayabusa car is less frenzied than an R1 ect. but it is still far madder than a CEC. With your £10k budget all but the very best / newest are in your range, you may need a bit more for a good 'busa, so look about. One other bit of noteworthyness is if you are looking at a homebuilt BEC, an ideal one is one which uses all the loom and clocks ect from the donor and unmodified as possible. If your prospective car has aftermarket digidashes, electronic actuator gearshift mechanisms and electric reverses ect. just make sure it all works as is should or you could have a nightmare on your hands.
Thanks for the advice Bob. I understand that a dry sump is ideal but would a baffled sump/surge plate not suffice for a busa?
A 2003 injected R1 is actually what I was afer initially but there don't seem to be any about... All the ones on PH are the older carbed model. I'm looking on kitcar-trader and ebay, is there anywhere else I should be looking for cars?
Point about the electrics noted, I have read of people having stators rewound and using 'lossy' big battery systems etc to get around it. I'd rather buy something I don't have to mess with too much. I have the mechanical skills, just don't think I have the patience anymore
A 2003 injected R1 is actually what I was afer initially but there don't seem to be any about... All the ones on PH are the older carbed model. I'm looking on kitcar-trader and ebay, is there anywhere else I should be looking for cars?
Point about the electrics noted, I have read of people having stators rewound and using 'lossy' big battery systems etc to get around it. I'd rather buy something I don't have to mess with too much. I have the mechanical skills, just don't think I have the patience anymore
Maxey said:
Thanks for the advice Bob. I understand that a dry sump is ideal but would a baffled sump/surge plate not suffice for a busa?
I have to say I don't know of anyone who's run one without a dry sump. One problem inherent in all Busas is that the oil pump loses efficiency when it gets hot, apparently the casing expands, resulting in low oil pressures at low rpm when hot. Maybe not being dry sumped would exacerbate this.Also when you can replace an engine for a grand (R1, Blade etc.) you maybe don't mind taking chances, but you won't find a decent Busa motor for less than £2k and a good one will be nearer £4k.
BobM said:
Maxey said:
Thanks for the advice Bob. I understand that a dry sump is ideal but would a baffled sump/surge plate not suffice for a busa?
I have to say I don't know of anyone who's run one without a dry sump. One problem inherent in all Busas is that the oil pump loses efficiency when it gets hot, apparently the casing expands, resulting in low oil pressures at low rpm when hot. Maybe not being dry sumped would exacerbate this.Also when you can replace an engine for a grand (R1, Blade etc.) you maybe don't mind taking chances, but you won't find a decent Busa motor for less than £2k and a good one will be nearer £4k.
I run the engine 0.5L more full, the guy i got the car from had built 2 or 3 of these cars and knows the engine very well, he maintains that he has seen more dry sumped engines give up.
Just what i was told anyways.
Guys, while I am waiting for info on the 'Busa I mentioned... And given the comments about dry sumping and smaller engines being adequate, I have been having another look around and found this:
http://www.kitcar-trader.co.uk/detail.php?siteid=1...
Now is it me or is the bonnet a different colour?! I was a welder/fabricator in a previous life so I am capable of checking the quality of the chassis construction but not really sure what else to look at... This car looks very tidy and well put together on the face of it, any thoughts? What kind of questions do I need to be asking? I'm assuming the diff ratio is all important again, what kind of ratio is good/acceptable? Are the figures in the previous posts generic, with 3.14 being the 'sweet spot' no matter what bike engine is used?
The difficult thing (to me) with locost is that the quality seems to vary massively and so does the price. I am really struggling to find a 'right price' for any locost, where with a megablade, megabusa etc you kind of know what price to expect. Can anyone offer me any assistance in this area? Is the car mentioned above expensive or on the money or...? As I said before I have nothing against a smaller engined/less expensive car but I'm really struggling with prices... Do people just make a number up or is there some kind of rough price 'guide'?
Added to this another potential debate starter (sorry!)... Would I be better going for a Westfield over a Locost as the price of this loco is quite high. All else being equal (same builder and attention to detail), is the Westfield superior to the Locost? I suspect this is an impossible question but I'm asking it anyway!
Thanks for your help so far, I'm glad to see there are people out there willing to help a 7 newbie - I appreciate the feedback.
Cheers
Max
http://www.kitcar-trader.co.uk/detail.php?siteid=1...
Now is it me or is the bonnet a different colour?! I was a welder/fabricator in a previous life so I am capable of checking the quality of the chassis construction but not really sure what else to look at... This car looks very tidy and well put together on the face of it, any thoughts? What kind of questions do I need to be asking? I'm assuming the diff ratio is all important again, what kind of ratio is good/acceptable? Are the figures in the previous posts generic, with 3.14 being the 'sweet spot' no matter what bike engine is used?
The difficult thing (to me) with locost is that the quality seems to vary massively and so does the price. I am really struggling to find a 'right price' for any locost, where with a megablade, megabusa etc you kind of know what price to expect. Can anyone offer me any assistance in this area? Is the car mentioned above expensive or on the money or...? As I said before I have nothing against a smaller engined/less expensive car but I'm really struggling with prices... Do people just make a number up or is there some kind of rough price 'guide'?
Added to this another potential debate starter (sorry!)... Would I be better going for a Westfield over a Locost as the price of this loco is quite high. All else being equal (same builder and attention to detail), is the Westfield superior to the Locost? I suspect this is an impossible question but I'm asking it anyway!
Thanks for your help so far, I'm glad to see there are people out there willing to help a 7 newbie - I appreciate the feedback.
Cheers
Max
Benzini said:
I run a megabusa without a dry sump, and i believe there is no problem with doing so..
I run the engine 0.5L more full, the guy i got the car from had built 2 or 3 of these cars and knows the engine very well, he maintains that he has seen more dry sumped engines give up.
Interesting Benzini, as I said, I hadn't encountered any without a dry sump before.I run the engine 0.5L more full, the guy i got the car from had built 2 or 3 of these cars and knows the engine very well, he maintains that he has seen more dry sumped engines give up.
Ive had one busa with a baffled sump and it used to surge badly on semi slick tyres even on the road, would put the oil light on round roundabouts and under heavy braking, I tried overfilling the oil level and this resulted in the engine overheating on track due to the added drag, and the oilpresure still fluctuated !
Ive since had 6 megabusa westfields all for track/race use, they have all been dry sumped, the westfield dry sump system isnt perfect though, It would surge on fast left handers like the fast corner into the complex at Croft , charlies ? at Cadwell corner at the end of the start straight and worse was the left hander at oulton Park 2nd corner after the start straight, It would drop pressure everytime when pushing on running slicks! my last 2 busa motors including a stroked 1550 megabusa used the nova racing system which was troublesome at first but once I sorted the dysump tank it was much better and the one I would recomend .
ps if budget dictates this is a good spec car for the money it is advertised at!
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1074028.htm
Ive since had 6 megabusa westfields all for track/race use, they have all been dry sumped, the westfield dry sump system isnt perfect though, It would surge on fast left handers like the fast corner into the complex at Croft , charlies ? at Cadwell corner at the end of the start straight and worse was the left hander at oulton Park 2nd corner after the start straight, It would drop pressure everytime when pushing on running slicks! my last 2 busa motors including a stroked 1550 megabusa used the nova racing system which was troublesome at first but once I sorted the dysump tank it was much better and the one I would recomend .
ps if budget dictates this is a good spec car for the money it is advertised at!
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1074028.htm
Edited by JeffC on Saturday 4th July 21:18
kit car trader? Another web site for me to check. Anyother kit car sales sites? This and ebay are on my list. Good luck with the hunt max. Hopefully ill be joining you within 12 months. I have been looking for a while a cars like the above mentioned stm in green dont come along often with that spec and cost.
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