triple carb 3 x 40 DCNF
Discussion
I contact you on behalf of a friend who has a TVR Taimar since more than twenty years.
He would like to change carb on his Ford Essex V6 3 liters to improve performance.
Do 3 Weber 40 DCNF work and give good results or ...problems ?
Some people say this change is of great value, others don't recommend it.
Could you kindly share your experience.
Coordinates of some specialists/or other TVR owners who have experienced such modification are welcome.
Many thanks in advance for your help.
Patrick
He would like to change carb on his Ford Essex V6 3 liters to improve performance.
Do 3 Weber 40 DCNF work and give good results or ...problems ?
Some people say this change is of great value, others don't recommend it.
Could you kindly share your experience.
Coordinates of some specialists/or other TVR owners who have experienced such modification are welcome.
Many thanks in advance for your help.
Patrick
Edited by griffith40 on Wednesday 8th July 15:00
You don’t give many details of the engines state of tune in your friends Taimar. So I’ll try and be quite general.
For a standard engine, the set-up is an expensive carburation change that will suceed in using more fuel and would liberate no more power. A standard engine is well served by the standard D Gas. Its just not worthwhile. They do look very good though (IMHO).
With a mildly to quite well tuned engine, either a single GP1 carb or a Holley would produce the same or better results and be more reliable.
With something approaching full race they will liberate more power than a single carb. BUT...the triple DCNFs do not fit under the standard Taimar bonnet with a filter that allows the correct fuel stand-off. The bonnet also masks the front carbs air flow, typically, you will see around 30 bhp more power with the bonnet removed...
In summary, to justify fitting the carbs, from a cost and performance perspective is difficult unless youre looking at more than 260-270 flywheel BHP, and if that were the case, 42 DCNFs is where you would want to be spending your money, not the smaller 40s.
Hope his helps.
For a standard engine, the set-up is an expensive carburation change that will suceed in using more fuel and would liberate no more power. A standard engine is well served by the standard D Gas. Its just not worthwhile. They do look very good though (IMHO).
With a mildly to quite well tuned engine, either a single GP1 carb or a Holley would produce the same or better results and be more reliable.
With something approaching full race they will liberate more power than a single carb. BUT...the triple DCNFs do not fit under the standard Taimar bonnet with a filter that allows the correct fuel stand-off. The bonnet also masks the front carbs air flow, typically, you will see around 30 bhp more power with the bonnet removed...
In summary, to justify fitting the carbs, from a cost and performance perspective is difficult unless youre looking at more than 260-270 flywheel BHP, and if that were the case, 42 DCNFs is where you would want to be spending your money, not the smaller 40s.
Hope his helps.
Edited by TVR_owner on Wednesday 8th July 15:27
TimmyArt said:
DavidY said:
IMHO no triple carb setup (or triple throttle body setup) is worth it unless you mod the exhaust manifolds/system - there are more gains to be had by doing this first.
davidy
Can you elaborate...What can be done to the manifolds/system and how much gain? davidy
John's system is of the extreme variety. My car and GAjon's had Tony Law systems, with a bunch of bananas manifolds (seperate pipes going to a collector - pipes when in and outside the chassis rails) followed by a large bore exhaust system.
The problem with the Essex engine is airflow in and out, many filters don't allow enough air in (with the bonnet clearance) and most exhausts don't allow enough out.
Personally I think that triple Webers are wasted on a road M series car, as you will gain very little benefit on the road but drink a whole load more fuel. If you are a regular trackday visitor or use the car in competition where 4500+ rpm will be used regularly then yes use them.
My engine was on a single 40DFI and still developed over 200bhp (with the Tony Law Exhaust System).
davidy
The problem with the Essex engine is airflow in and out, many filters don't allow enough air in (with the bonnet clearance) and most exhausts don't allow enough out.
Personally I think that triple Webers are wasted on a road M series car, as you will gain very little benefit on the road but drink a whole load more fuel. If you are a regular trackday visitor or use the car in competition where 4500+ rpm will be used regularly then yes use them.
My engine was on a single 40DFI and still developed over 200bhp (with the Tony Law Exhaust System).
davidy
DavidY said:
The problem with the Essex engine is airflow in and out, many filters don't allow enough air in (with the bonnet clearance) and most exhausts don't allow enough out.
Personally I think that triple Webers are wasted on a road M series car, as you will gain very little benefit on the road but drink a whole load more fuel. If you are a regular trackday visitor or use the car in competition where 4500+ rpm will be used regularly then yes use them.
My engine was on a single 40DFI and still developed over 200bhp (with the Tony Law Exhaust System).
davidy
Think we agree on all points. Ceratin engine builders are claiming 270BHP on a DFI, others say the limit is 225 ish, depends on who you want to believe. For road use, 225 in an M is probably ok normally aspirated as power delivery will become a pain much beyond that. Personally I think that triple Webers are wasted on a road M series car, as you will gain very little benefit on the road but drink a whole load more fuel. If you are a regular trackday visitor or use the car in competition where 4500+ rpm will be used regularly then yes use them.
My engine was on a single 40DFI and still developed over 200bhp (with the Tony Law Exhaust System).
davidy
Is that certain, ceratin or cretin engine builders!!! 275bhp on a single DFI to me would be fantasy!
IME if you want an M to go faster, the best way is to sort out the suspension/brakes, and then get some driver training.
Engine mods should come later (but thats not necessarily the right order for pub bragging rights!!)
IME if you want an M to go faster, the best way is to sort out the suspension/brakes, and then get some driver training.
Engine mods should come later (but thats not necessarily the right order for pub bragging rights!!)
DavidY said:
Is that certain, ceratin or cretin engine builders!!!
I couldn't possiby comment, other to say I wouldnt use either of them.... not sure if one is out of his depth or just testing the water with the V6s, the other I wood not trust.I'll be looking at some one to one driver training over the winter/spring months and I expect it to pay big rewards.
Years ago I had a day with Club 89 (now no longer exists) in the Taimar, that included approx 3 hours of one to one tutition, it certainly helped and my poor old Taimar did a lot of laps of Castle Combe! The biggest thing that I learnt and still use to this day is not to grip the wheel too hard so that you can feel what the car is doing.
A few years later, Dee won a draw for a TVR Performance Technique Day at Donington, we took the Griff500, there you had one instructor per two cars, but the other driver went home at luchtime so we had the instructor to ourselves. The car then spent 40mins in very hour on the circuit during the afternoon!! Again learnt a lot, smothness is the key, speed comes later!
davidy
A few years later, Dee won a draw for a TVR Performance Technique Day at Donington, we took the Griff500, there you had one instructor per two cars, but the other driver went home at luchtime so we had the instructor to ourselves. The car then spent 40mins in very hour on the circuit during the afternoon!! Again learnt a lot, smothness is the key, speed comes later!
davidy
TVR_owner said:
DavidY said:
Is that certain, ceratin or cretin engine builders!!!
I couldn't possiby comment, other to say I wouldnt use either of them.... not sure if one is out of his depth or just testing the water with the V6s, the other I wood not trust.I'll be looking at some one to one driver training over the winter/spring months and I expect it to pay big rewards.
and for my next granama
N
I've got three 40's on mine, but we also fitted big valve heads and a proper exhaust which made a big difference.
There are two big issues - one is getting a manifold and the one I got was an early Swaymar - these had a problem with the cores moving during casting and they have to be opened up on one side and tig welded on the other to make sure they line up correctly. Very difficult to identify with the naked eye
Carbs are the other issue - but if you're prepared to tour the breakers looking for early MG Montegos and Maestros these had them
In terms of clearance I've got mine under a standard 3000M bonnet breathing though K&N filters. Some of the racers ( like John Simpson) do have a taller power bulge to make extra space and doubtless get a power gain from that.
Is it faster than a standard 3000M? Don't know - never driven a standard one - bought mine as a basket case. However a mate who has a Taimar thinks that the set up makes the car quite a bit quicker
There are two big issues - one is getting a manifold and the one I got was an early Swaymar - these had a problem with the cores moving during casting and they have to be opened up on one side and tig welded on the other to make sure they line up correctly. Very difficult to identify with the naked eye
Carbs are the other issue - but if you're prepared to tour the breakers looking for early MG Montegos and Maestros these had them
In terms of clearance I've got mine under a standard 3000M bonnet breathing though K&N filters. Some of the racers ( like John Simpson) do have a taller power bulge to make extra space and doubtless get a power gain from that.
Is it faster than a standard 3000M? Don't know - never driven a standard one - bought mine as a basket case. However a mate who has a Taimar thinks that the set up makes the car quite a bit quicker
All the good stuff has been said.
My experience is, just talking about the engine and putting aside chassis, handling, braking, suspension, tyres, driver ability etc.
I had my Essex (not the GA) at a pretty good state of tune and drivability, but I wanted more, so I searched high and low for a tripple Webber manifold set up, in truth because I'd read an article on a magazine from a guy who claimed to have the 'ulimate Essex' and, irrespective of the content of the article, the engine with triples looked fantastic.
So I eventually aquired a tripple set up and gave it to the engine tuner who fitted it, as instructed, and it was awfull.
It ruined the drivability of the car, it was quicker in a straight line(Santa pod and York raceway times) but in real life it made he car slower.
My origonal engine tuner was out of ideas, so I went to another (the person I had actually got the manifold and carbs off) who suggested a different cam profile plus the exhaust manifold/system change, this was the midas touch, it tranformed the power delivery and drivability of the car making not only quicker, but faster (if you know what i mean).
So as has been said before, just putting triples on is a waste of time and money, unless you are already in a good state of tune, and you must let the engine breath out with a decent exhaust set up.
All that said, I'd still put them on just for the look!
John
My experience is, just talking about the engine and putting aside chassis, handling, braking, suspension, tyres, driver ability etc.
I had my Essex (not the GA) at a pretty good state of tune and drivability, but I wanted more, so I searched high and low for a tripple Webber manifold set up, in truth because I'd read an article on a magazine from a guy who claimed to have the 'ulimate Essex' and, irrespective of the content of the article, the engine with triples looked fantastic.
So I eventually aquired a tripple set up and gave it to the engine tuner who fitted it, as instructed, and it was awfull.
It ruined the drivability of the car, it was quicker in a straight line(Santa pod and York raceway times) but in real life it made he car slower.
My origonal engine tuner was out of ideas, so I went to another (the person I had actually got the manifold and carbs off) who suggested a different cam profile plus the exhaust manifold/system change, this was the midas touch, it tranformed the power delivery and drivability of the car making not only quicker, but faster (if you know what i mean).
So as has been said before, just putting triples on is a waste of time and money, unless you are already in a good state of tune, and you must let the engine breath out with a decent exhaust set up.
All that said, I'd still put them on just for the look!
John
Anyone have the Jet settings for a 40DFI on a 3.0 or 3.4 essex?? I have bought a 40 DFI but somehow my 3000m wont drive well on it. It has the 190 mains. standard emulsion tube. Somehow My version of the 40dfi has an extra air screw at the side. Not all 40dfi's have that. So first question. What are the settings on a 3l essex with 40 dfi? Someone with a good working system can tell me?? sexond question. Anyone know that i talk about with the extra air screw at the side of the 40dfi? it is not on most drawings of the standard 40 dfi allthough it is labelled 40 dfi. Please share the info. Cheers.
Milko
Milko
Hi Milko,
Have you seen this page?
http://www.tubetvr.com/essex.html
The 40DFI as supplied for use on the Essex V6 is equipped with the following jets, (at least mine was).
Main jets 190
Air corrector jets 115
Main venturis 32
Auxcillary venturis 4.5
Emulsion tubes F15
Idle fuel jets 60
Idle air jets, (fixed) 150
Have you seen this page?
http://www.tubetvr.com/essex.html
The 40DFI as supplied for use on the Essex V6 is equipped with the following jets, (at least mine was).
Main jets 190
Air corrector jets 115
Main venturis 32
Auxcillary venturis 4.5
Emulsion tubes F15
Idle fuel jets 60
Idle air jets, (fixed) 150
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