How to get away with murder...
Discussion
Interesting sentences handed out...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8145882....
What an absolute joke.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8145882....
What an absolute joke.
TurboMills said:
I would imagine there is more to this story than the article suggests.
Two of the killers have the same surname as the victim, and it's not a common one either.
Still pretty outrageous never the less.
Having been in Mumbai for 2 weeks running training courses, we have quite a lot of "odd" surnames, and many are the same, we had 3 "Yadav", 2 "Tiwari", neither of them related, not saying those in the article are Indians, but maybe not uncommon where they originate from.Two of the killers have the same surname as the victim, and it's not a common one either.
Still pretty outrageous never the less.
Either way, as you say, outrageous.......and have you noticed lately, a lot of stabbing/killings in UK involving non europeans, to many life is meaningless, only today in the local paper, a parent saw a 17 boy running out of his young daughters bedroom, so he killed her to protect the family!
Edited by Vipers on Saturday 11th July 17:25
Vipers said:
C'mon thats British justice, no council tax to pay, nice colour sky telly, what can a man ask for 
Absolutelys bloody disgustging, what on earth are our courts up to, beggers belief doesn't it.
They will even pay for you to get a degree. If you killed someone, admitted it and had a good reason and with good behaviour you could easily be out in 4 years, plenty of time to get a degree, with none of the fees and plenty of help brought in to assist you with it.Absolutelys bloody disgustging, what on earth are our courts up to, beggers belief doesn't it.
Edited by Vipers on Saturday 11th July 17:19
You could be better off killing someone than trying to succeed in this country.
Vipers said:
TurboMills said:
I would imagine there is more to this story than the article suggests.
Two of the killers have the same surname as the victim, and it's not a common one either.
Still pretty outrageous never the less.
Having been in Mumbai for 2 weeks running training courses, we have quite a lot of "odd" surnames, and many are the same, we had 3 "Yadav", 2 "Tiwari", neither of them related, not saying those in the article are Indians, but maybe not uncommon where they originate from.Two of the killers have the same surname as the victim, and it's not a common one either.
Still pretty outrageous never the less.
Either way, as you say, outrageous.......and have you noticed lately, a lot of stabbing/killings in UK involving non europeans, to many life is meaningless, only today in the local paper, a parent saw a 17 boy running out of his young daughters bedroom, so he killed her to protect the family!
Edited by Vipers on Saturday 11th July 17:25
As for the news reports, and the papers, I think I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with the whole state of affairs tbh. I try and avoid these type of stories, they can really grind me up.
Oh well. Carry on regardless I guess
Gurung is a very common Nepalese name - I've met four people of Nepalese origin, none of whom were related, and three of them shared the same surname.
Anyway, that's not the point, the point is they attacked someone (someone who hadn't actually done anything wrong), threw the poor guy in to the River Thames, where he died from drowning.
Three years for that?? Bloody hell.
Anyway, that's not the point, the point is they attacked someone (someone who hadn't actually done anything wrong), threw the poor guy in to the River Thames, where he died from drowning.
Three years for that?? Bloody hell.
Dav_s said:
Interesting sentences handed out...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8145882....
What an absolute joke.
How do you know it was murder? Given that there has been a police investigation and yet the people were not convicted of murder, you must have some pretty major evidence? Or are you just making it up to suit your feelings?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8145882....
What an absolute joke.
SamHH said:
Dav_s said:
Interesting sentences handed out...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8145882....
What an absolute joke.
How do you know it was murder? Given that there has been a police investigation and yet the people were not convicted of murder, you must have some pretty major evidence? Or are you just making it up to suit your feelings?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8145882....
What an absolute joke.
They were convicted of manslaughter not murder, I'm quite sure there will be more to this one than a 15 line BBC news report. What like that they beat a guy up and threw him in the river expecting him to be able to swim and he couldn't.
No doubt the CPS would have heard that defence and marked up a murder charge as too difficult, so go with what they know they can win.
The police would have had no input as to what charge was laid.
That is the CPS decision and as long as they are target orientated to obtain a percentage of positive case disposal at court they will continue to chase the lesser charge.
At case assessment IIRC they had to have an 80% likelihood of conviction before they gave authority to charge.
No doubt the CPS would have heard that defence and marked up a murder charge as too difficult, so go with what they know they can win.
The police would have had no input as to what charge was laid.
That is the CPS decision and as long as they are target orientated to obtain a percentage of positive case disposal at court they will continue to chase the lesser charge.
At case assessment IIRC they had to have an 80% likelihood of conviction before they gave authority to charge.
davemac250 said:
What like that they beat a guy up and threw him in the river expecting him to be able to swim and he couldn't.
No doubt the CPS would have heard that defence and marked up a murder charge as too difficult, so go with what they know they can win.
The police would have had no input as to what charge was laid.
That is the CPS decision and as long as they are target orientated to obtain a percentage of positive case disposal at court they will continue to chase the lesser charge.
At case assessment IIRC they had to have an 80% likelihood of conviction before they gave authority to charge.
It makes no difference. Either it is proved beyond all reasonable doubt that they are guilty of murder or it isn't; that's how the legal system of any civilised society should work. In this case it hasn't been proved, so talking about them not getting harsh enough sentences for murdering someone is irrelevant.No doubt the CPS would have heard that defence and marked up a murder charge as too difficult, so go with what they know they can win.
The police would have had no input as to what charge was laid.
That is the CPS decision and as long as they are target orientated to obtain a percentage of positive case disposal at court they will continue to chase the lesser charge.
At case assessment IIRC they had to have an 80% likelihood of conviction before they gave authority to charge.
SamHH said:
davemac250 said:
What like that they beat a guy up and threw him in the river expecting him to be able to swim and he couldn't.
No doubt the CPS would have heard that defence and marked up a murder charge as too difficult, so go with what they know they can win.
The police would have had no input as to what charge was laid.
That is the CPS decision and as long as they are target orientated to obtain a percentage of positive case disposal at court they will continue to chase the lesser charge.
At case assessment IIRC they had to have an 80% likelihood of conviction before they gave authority to charge.
It makes no difference. Either it is proved beyond all reasonable doubt that they are guilty of murder or it isn't; that's how the legal system of any civilised society should work. In this case it hasn't been proved, so talking about them not getting harsh enough sentences for murdering someone is irrelevant.No doubt the CPS would have heard that defence and marked up a murder charge as too difficult, so go with what they know they can win.
The police would have had no input as to what charge was laid.
That is the CPS decision and as long as they are target orientated to obtain a percentage of positive case disposal at court they will continue to chase the lesser charge.
At case assessment IIRC they had to have an 80% likelihood of conviction before they gave authority to charge.
It wasn't proved as it wasn't tested.
Tell me how that is fair to the victim? The victim's family?
I agree they received the appropriate sentence for what they were convicted (admitted) to.
I question whether the finding was on an appropriate charge.
From personal experience I know that there is a good chance the easy option was taken. I can even understand the skewed thinking behind it somewhat. That does not mean I agree with the system as it stands.
If someone I knew was beaten up and thrown in to a river, where he drowned, I'd be inclined to say he was murdered, not the victim of manslaughter.
The whole point I was trying to make by posting the link with that particular title, was that in the eyes of the majority of people in this country, I reckon they'd see what those guys did as murder.
Therefore, as most of us are aware, technicalities and shortcomings often lead to joke sentences being handed out to criminals. And that was my point/opinion.
The whole point I was trying to make by posting the link with that particular title, was that in the eyes of the majority of people in this country, I reckon they'd see what those guys did as murder.
Therefore, as most of us are aware, technicalities and shortcomings often lead to joke sentences being handed out to criminals. And that was my point/opinion.
Edited by Dav_s on Sunday 12th July 13:38
Manslaughter, murder, call it what you, they took a life, and the "Shaquille" gang who also took a life got LIFE.
What is this country coming to, I just hope the lawyers for the defence can sleep at night.
Don't matter how you dress it up, same outcome. I dont want to split hairs when someone looses control of a car and accidently kills a pedestiran, but from we know, these were both MURDER, at least in my book. Just my thoughts on the matter.
What is this country coming to, I just hope the lawyers for the defence can sleep at night.
Don't matter how you dress it up, same outcome. I dont want to split hairs when someone looses control of a car and accidently kills a pedestiran, but from we know, these were both MURDER, at least in my book. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Dav_s said:
If someone I knew was beaten up and thrown in to a river, where he drowned, I'd be inclined to say he was murdered, not the victim of manslaughter.
The whole point I was trying to make by posting the link with that particular title, was that in the eyes of the majority of people in this country, I reckon they'd see what those guys did as murder.
Therefore, as most of us are aware, technicalities and shortcomings often lead to joke sentences being handed out to criminals. And that was my point/opinion.
Its not a technicality. From my understanding of the case there was a finding that there was no intention to cause grievous bodily harm by the Defendants. If that finding is correct, they do not have sufficient intention to be found guilty of murder, hence the conviction for manslaughter.The whole point I was trying to make by posting the link with that particular title, was that in the eyes of the majority of people in this country, I reckon they'd see what those guys did as murder.
Therefore, as most of us are aware, technicalities and shortcomings often lead to joke sentences being handed out to criminals. And that was my point/opinion.
Edited by Dav_s on Sunday 12th July 13:38
I doubt very much whether anyone here knows about the case sufficiently to say that, contrary to the findings, there was an intention to cause grievous bodily harm.
davemac250 said:
However, one of the points raised was why were they not charged with Murder.
It wasn't proved as it wasn't tested.
Tell me how that is fair to the victim? The victim's family?
I agree they received the appropriate sentence for what they were convicted (admitted) to.
I question whether the finding was on an appropriate charge.
From personal experience I know that there is a good chance the easy option was taken. I can even understand the skewed thinking behind it somewhat. That does not mean I agree with the system as it stands.
It is the job of the CPS to assess the evidence and prosecute for whatever charges they believe they can secure a conviction for. If you have seen all of the evidence that the CPS saw, or you know there to be other evidence that the CPS didn't see, and you have come to the conclusion that the defendants should have been prosecuted for and/or convicted of murder, then I can't and won't argue against that. Otherwise, I don't see what your argument is, apart from "the CPS don't always get it right, but I've no idea whether they did in this instance".It wasn't proved as it wasn't tested.
Tell me how that is fair to the victim? The victim's family?
I agree they received the appropriate sentence for what they were convicted (admitted) to.
I question whether the finding was on an appropriate charge.
From personal experience I know that there is a good chance the easy option was taken. I can even understand the skewed thinking behind it somewhat. That does not mean I agree with the system as it stands.
SamHH said:
davemac250 said:
However, one of the points raised was why were they not charged with Murder.
It wasn't proved as it wasn't tested.
Tell me how that is fair to the victim? The victim's family?
I agree they received the appropriate sentence for what they were convicted (admitted) to.
I question whether the finding was on an appropriate charge.
From personal experience I know that there is a good chance the easy option was taken. I can even understand the skewed thinking behind it somewhat. That does not mean I agree with the system as it stands.
It is the job of the CPS to assess the evidence and prosecute for whatever charges they believe they can secure a conviction for. If you have seen all of the evidence that the CPS saw, or you know there to be other evidence that the CPS didn't see, and you have come to the conclusion that the defendants should have been prosecuted for and/or convicted of murder, then I can't and won't argue against that. Otherwise, I don't see what your argument is, apart from "the CPS don't always get it right, but I've no idea whether they did in this instance".It wasn't proved as it wasn't tested.
Tell me how that is fair to the victim? The victim's family?
I agree they received the appropriate sentence for what they were convicted (admitted) to.
I question whether the finding was on an appropriate charge.
From personal experience I know that there is a good chance the easy option was taken. I can even understand the skewed thinking behind it somewhat. That does not mean I agree with the system as it stands.
That by doing this they distort their own competence by failing to present the case in its entirety to a jury to allow the evidence as collected to be tested.
They are forming a secondary test system that should not be in their remit.
I have spoken with officers involved in the case as it is my old area. I will say no more than they are not happy with this outcome.
Of course if you feel that the current system is the best we could possibly have then so be it. Personally I would favour the evidence being seen and tested.
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