Becoming a Pilot - Prohibitively expensive?
Discussion
I've been looking into the possibilities of re-training to become a pilot recently and have found the costs to be a little staggering to say the least! Oxford Aviation academy currently costs £71,000 not including living costs to train.
So, is this prohibitively expensive or will the money earned as a pilot make the loan/funding easy enough to pay back? when i say easy, i dont mean that, just possible really.
I'm 26, have a degree etc and 20/20 vision, and its been something that I've wanted to do since I was a kid but always thought it was impossible unless you went military. Anyone on here training to become a pilot or can give any advice?
Is becoming helicopter certified substantially cheaper and what is the job market like in that field? I have a friend who's currently training and he says the job markets as slow as anywhere else but he's hoping for it to pick up for when he graduates. apparently the LCC's are hiring more than the main airlines.
Cheers
So, is this prohibitively expensive or will the money earned as a pilot make the loan/funding easy enough to pay back? when i say easy, i dont mean that, just possible really.
I'm 26, have a degree etc and 20/20 vision, and its been something that I've wanted to do since I was a kid but always thought it was impossible unless you went military. Anyone on here training to become a pilot or can give any advice?
Is becoming helicopter certified substantially cheaper and what is the job market like in that field? I have a friend who's currently training and he says the job markets as slow as anywhere else but he's hoping for it to pick up for when he graduates. apparently the LCC's are hiring more than the main airlines.
Cheers
As a recently qualified commercial pilot, the best bit of advice I can give is have a back up plan! There is no guarantee of a job when you've finished, so make sure you have a normal job that pays the bills and debt you will accumulate through the training.
Don't go into aviation for the money. It's just not there now. Go into it because you love flying and will do anything to keep in the air.
At the moment, if I was you, I'd get my PPL and just enjoy flying around the UK building the hours and experience. Then when the job market looks like it's improving you can start the commercial training. Also, look at modular training, as it's cheaper and you can do it in sections (i.e. PPL, then ATPL theory, then hour building, then CPL/IR/ME, then MCC)
If you've got any specific questions, fire away. I'm sure I'm not the only one here fool hardy enough to be trying to get into the business
Don't go into aviation for the money. It's just not there now. Go into it because you love flying and will do anything to keep in the air.
At the moment, if I was you, I'd get my PPL and just enjoy flying around the UK building the hours and experience. Then when the job market looks like it's improving you can start the commercial training. Also, look at modular training, as it's cheaper and you can do it in sections (i.e. PPL, then ATPL theory, then hour building, then CPL/IR/ME, then MCC)
If you've got any specific questions, fire away. I'm sure I'm not the only one here fool hardy enough to be trying to get into the business
AbarthChris said:
Is becoming helicopter certified substantially cheaper and what is the job market like in that field?
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-...
Get reading. Note pessimism from all airline pilots on that site.
£70k is the top end of the price scale. its possible to get your frozen ATPL [i.e. airline min. standard] for £30-35k if you are prepared to train in the US.
for rotary, bristow academy [similar to OAT in terms of being a 'name' within the industry] do an ab-initio scheme for [iirc] $60k, less for the FAA only course.
i'm a little older than you and since i was in my teens i wanted to be a heli-pilot. now i'm close to having the funds, i'm having cold feet. its a lot of cash to splash on a career gamble.
for rotary, bristow academy [similar to OAT in terms of being a 'name' within the industry] do an ab-initio scheme for [iirc] $60k, less for the FAA only course.
i'm a little older than you and since i was in my teens i wanted to be a heli-pilot. now i'm close to having the funds, i'm having cold feet. its a lot of cash to splash on a career gamble.
Helicopter training much more expensive and the civvy sector is mainly ex-Forces, so getting yourself in there without contacts will be difficult (I'm sure there is an element of jobs for the boys, but also how many civvy-pilots will have hundreds of hours experience of all weather night and day flying, or NVG use if you're applying for Police choppers?), but not impossible. Bond had a cadetship a couple of years ago (made it to final interviews, but they must have seen my face then 
), but only took about 6 people. I don't see anything like that being offered in the near future, but you never know.
I'd love to get back into flying, but it'll have to wait for the time being - ATPL doesn't really hold much interest for me - getting a CPL and float plane conversion and working for Loch Lomond seaplanes would be great. Flying around W. Scotland and landing on the Clyde and Loch Lomond? Awesome. Bit of a niche market in the UK though........
), but only took about 6 people. I don't see anything like that being offered in the near future, but you never know.I'd love to get back into flying, but it'll have to wait for the time being - ATPL doesn't really hold much interest for me - getting a CPL and float plane conversion and working for Loch Lomond seaplanes would be great. Flying around W. Scotland and landing on the Clyde and Loch Lomond? Awesome. Bit of a niche market in the UK though........
Edited by Taffer on Friday 17th July 12:10
Oxford Air Academy has an excellent reputation and very popular with overseas students who need to perfect their English. But there may be cheaper routes in the US.
There is a certain amount of luck in the career path - ie being in the right place at the right time. At the moment there are a surplus of qualified pilots with no one really recruiting, but the market can change very quickly.
Flying has become a bit of a vocation for many - investing a lot of time and money for little initial reward in the hope that the opportunities will present themselves in the future. But for some they just have to do it, otherwise their life would be forever unfulfilled through not having tried.
The other option is to make a good living elsewhere and fly for fun. IMO helicopters beat f/w, but the opportunities are less reliable.
There is a certain amount of luck in the career path - ie being in the right place at the right time. At the moment there are a surplus of qualified pilots with no one really recruiting, but the market can change very quickly.
Flying has become a bit of a vocation for many - investing a lot of time and money for little initial reward in the hope that the opportunities will present themselves in the future. But for some they just have to do it, otherwise their life would be forever unfulfilled through not having tried.
The other option is to make a good living elsewhere and fly for fun. IMO helicopters beat f/w, but the opportunities are less reliable.
john_p said:
AbarthChris said:
Is becoming helicopter certified substantially cheaper and what is the job market like in that field?
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-...
Get reading. Note pessimism from all airline pilots on that site.
I find the public forums are full of misinformation. I think it's become a very unreliable source of knowledge in the last few years. That said, it's still probably the best source of information in a forum as a whole IF you are willing and able to sift through an awful lot of rubbish to find it.
Even the technical forums are a bit poor. I really don't know why anonymous people bother to sign up and post with absolute certainty answering questions they clearly don't know much about.
I can't really comment on the best way to go into flying training as it's been a while since I did it and I expect it's changed since then. All I would say is that a lot of people will try to discourage you with anecdotal stories about a mate or someone they know. Make sure you get ALL the information you can for yourself and make sure you go into it eyes wide open.
Get a class One medical before you do anything.
Working in the Airline industry will result in hugely different pay and conditions and lifestyle depending on which airline you work for. In the industry there are good employers and really bad employers. If you work for a poor one, your quality of life will be pretty ordinary and if you work for a good airline you will enjoy a fantastic career and lifestyle.
Edited by el stovey on Friday 17th July 15:25
JohnnyHayward said:
I am training at Oxford at the moment so please feel free to ask me any questions. I started in December and have just finished ground school, I am awaiting my results next week and then if I pass I can head out to Phoenix a week on Monday and start 5 months of flying!
Nice! good luck with that...Do you know Osman then? He's just finished his ground school i think.
How are you boys feeling about the job situation for when you graduate?
Don't forget if you do a course like at Oxford you're 18-24 months without any income as well as forking out 70k plus your living expenses. Add on to that the type rating you'll inevitably have to buy at the end and you're 100k down at the very least.
My advice would be to do the modular route whilst continuing with your current job. As mentioned before the job market is terrible at the moment so in 2 to 3 years when you're finished the cycle should be on the upturn. Maybe. It also means that you're doing it in smaller chunks and if by the end of the PPL the job market still looks crap you can just steadily build your hours and enjoy your flying. It will also cost half the price.
Also, don't rule out other ways of earning money from flying - it's not all about airlines! I instructed for about 800 hours and it's amazing how much you learn and how rewarding it is. Aerial surveying is also great fun, being paid to dick about in a someone elses aircraft is brilliant!
On the other hand, if you're on a half decent salary as it is (50k+), it will probably take a while before you start matching it - which could make it dificult to pay off that 100k if you go to Oxford. Oh and make sure you get your Class 1 medical before you start! I got my CPL in 2006, so the process is relatively fresh in my head if you need to ask any questions.
My advice would be to do the modular route whilst continuing with your current job. As mentioned before the job market is terrible at the moment so in 2 to 3 years when you're finished the cycle should be on the upturn. Maybe. It also means that you're doing it in smaller chunks and if by the end of the PPL the job market still looks crap you can just steadily build your hours and enjoy your flying. It will also cost half the price.
Also, don't rule out other ways of earning money from flying - it's not all about airlines! I instructed for about 800 hours and it's amazing how much you learn and how rewarding it is. Aerial surveying is also great fun, being paid to dick about in a someone elses aircraft is brilliant!
On the other hand, if you're on a half decent salary as it is (50k+), it will probably take a while before you start matching it - which could make it dificult to pay off that 100k if you go to Oxford. Oh and make sure you get your Class 1 medical before you start! I got my CPL in 2006, so the process is relatively fresh in my head if you need to ask any questions.
JohnnyHayward said:
Yeah I know Osman Khan, he's in the same class as me. The job situation at the moment is looking bad but hopefully by next year when we finish things will be on the up ! How do you know Oz ?
We both started at the same company a couple of years ago as graduates, he left the job to go to Oxford. He's a good lad! simonej said:
On the other hand, if you're on a half decent salary as it is (50k+), it will probably take a while before you start matching it - which could make it dificult to pay off that 100k if you go to Oxford. Oh and make sure you get your Class 1 medical before you start! I got my CPL in 2006, so the process is relatively fresh in my head if you need to ask any questions.
I'm not on anywhere near that at the moment so I'm beginning to think that trying to fund £70k for training plus living expenses would be prohibitively expensive.Without being too personal about the financing questions, how do others do it who dont have the savings available? i.e. the young guys who get into it?
AbarthChris said:
simonej said:
Without being too personal about the financing questions, how do others do it who dont have the savings available? i.e. the young guys who get into it?
Whopping great big loans from banks like HSBC (not sure if they still do them)! I think a friend of mine managed to get his tagged onto his mortgage or something like that. However, I know a couple whose monthly payments are so large that they can't even accept a job on less than 35k (2000 pound + payments per month aren't unheard of). I know someone whose parents remortgaged their house - two people in fact.Another way is Daddy's money (I would say there's a great deal of this at OAA). Doing it the modular way you'll find more people who are slightly older who've worked for a bit and saved up what they can in order to get the licenses. There are ways and means of keeping the costs down to sensible levels (and going to an integrated course isn't one of them).
I'd be a heck of a lot wealthier if I'd never bothered pursuing this career, though whether I'd be happier is another matter. I doubt it.
Some of the places I've been and some of the things I've seen have been amazing. Having said that, the job market was much better when I started and if I was considering it now I would probably not bother.PM or email me if you want some more details on the costs I incurred when doing it and what I'd personally do if doing it again.
simonej said:
AbarthChris said:
simonej said:
Without being too personal about the financing questions, how do others do it who dont have the savings available? i.e. the young guys who get into it?
Whopping great big loans from banks like HSBC (not sure if they still do them)! I think a friend of mine managed to get his tagged onto his mortgage or something like that. However, I know a couple whose monthly payments are so large that they can't even accept a job on less than 35k (2000 pound + payments per month aren't unheard of). I know someone whose parents remortgaged their house - two people in fact.Another way is Daddy's money (I would say there's a great deal of this at OAA). Doing it the modular way you'll find more people who are slightly older who've worked for a bit and saved up what they can in order to get the licenses. There are ways and means of keeping the costs down to sensible levels (and going to an integrated course isn't one of them).
I'd be a heck of a lot wealthier if I'd never bothered pursuing this career, though whether I'd be happier is another matter. I doubt it.
Some of the places I've been and some of the things I've seen have been amazing. Having said that, the job market was much better when I started and if I was considering it now I would probably not bother.PM or email me if you want some more details on the costs I incurred when doing it and what I'd personally do if doing it again.
I would say you actually don't know anything about OAA students other than what you have read on the internet...
I'd avoid it like the plague at the minute. Completely unbiassed - I work in aviation but not as a pilot and there's nigh on no jobs out there at the minute (We recently had about 500 applicants for 4 positions, of which about 300 were useable). Worst case you go to Oxford, go to Ryanair, shell out another €30k for a type rating, and are then faced with loan repayments of around £1800/month.
Best advice for now is go find a local flying club, do a PPL, make sure you can get a medical, fly for fun and enjoy it. There's no rush in the current market - wait until economic recovery starts to kick in (Which will be at least a year away). PPRuNE may appear to be full of begrudging wannabes - but some of the members are real life pilots that can see what's going on in the world. You would do well to heed the advice of WWW who frequently posts on there. A harbinger of doom - but very clued up.
PM me if you need any more advice.
Best advice for now is go find a local flying club, do a PPL, make sure you can get a medical, fly for fun and enjoy it. There's no rush in the current market - wait until economic recovery starts to kick in (Which will be at least a year away). PPRuNE may appear to be full of begrudging wannabes - but some of the members are real life pilots that can see what's going on in the world. You would do well to heed the advice of WWW who frequently posts on there. A harbinger of doom - but very clued up.
PM me if you need any more advice.
I'd agree with the post above - proceed with caution. Fly for fun first-and-foremost.
Aviation seems to have thus-far escaped much of the environmental opprobrium levelled at the (comparatively) humble private car, but that won't last...I'll wager that in 10 years time long-haul flights are being green-taxed back to price-levels they were at 20+ years ago, making flying once again a privilege.
...at which point, demand for planes drops off, and so does demand for pilots!
Add-in increased use of teleconferencing and virtual meetings, now made ultra-easy by high-speed internet, and the business market will dwindle too...
Aviation seems to have thus-far escaped much of the environmental opprobrium levelled at the (comparatively) humble private car, but that won't last...I'll wager that in 10 years time long-haul flights are being green-taxed back to price-levels they were at 20+ years ago, making flying once again a privilege.
...at which point, demand for planes drops off, and so does demand for pilots!
Add-in increased use of teleconferencing and virtual meetings, now made ultra-easy by high-speed internet, and the business market will dwindle too...
that in the UK, you can do a joint FAA/JAA commercial rotary course in the US for under £50k, less if you go FAA only and convert at a later date if you want/need to. some schools will hire you as an instructor afterwards, but the visa program to allow that is being withdrawn next year.
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