Cayenne Snow Driving
Discussion
There's a woman in Michigan who recently slid off the road and bent one of those fancy wheels. Now she is blaming the DEALER for telling her the car would do well in the snow. She is the former owner of four (4) corvettes, sheesh, what does that tell you.
I feared that when Porsche introduced their new SUV, that people would come out of the woodwork and buy them, just because they had the money to do so. These same people, when strapped into the drivers seat, will probably think they are invincible in their expensive 4WD hot rod, and probably think they can defy the laws of physics. Now Porsche has owners like this woman in Michigan, who apparently doesn't have a clue about how to drive a FIVE THOUSAND POUND lead sled in the snow, crying about the fact that SHE slid off the road and bent a wheel. She thinks it's the dealer's fault because he didn't tell her about the tires.
Looks like Porsche is in for a real treat with this new breed of Porsche owner. Great. Just what the rest of us need, a bunch of whiners driving around in their fancy new high-powered overweight SUV's.
Dogsharks
I feared that when Porsche introduced their new SUV, that people would come out of the woodwork and buy them, just because they had the money to do so. These same people, when strapped into the drivers seat, will probably think they are invincible in their expensive 4WD hot rod, and probably think they can defy the laws of physics. Now Porsche has owners like this woman in Michigan, who apparently doesn't have a clue about how to drive a FIVE THOUSAND POUND lead sled in the snow, crying about the fact that SHE slid off the road and bent a wheel. She thinks it's the dealer's fault because he didn't tell her about the tires.
Looks like Porsche is in for a real treat with this new breed of Porsche owner. Great. Just what the rest of us need, a bunch of whiners driving around in their fancy new high-powered overweight SUV's.
Dogsharks
If they've got the money morons can buy any car. I hope she's left with a huge legal bill.
What many people forget is all the masses of people buying the "non extreme" porkers, cover a great deal of the costs of the dealer network. To the benefit of owners of the more extreme pork, GT2, GT3, RS, Turbos etc.
DAZ
PS - Took a look at the video of your 928 on track.
>> Edited by dazren on Thursday 18th December 20:34
What many people forget is all the masses of people buying the "non extreme" porkers, cover a great deal of the costs of the dealer network. To the benefit of owners of the more extreme pork, GT2, GT3, RS, Turbos etc.
DAZ
PS - Took a look at the video of your 928 on track.
>> Edited by dazren on Thursday 18th December 20:34
dogsharks said:
Now she is blaming the DEALER for telling her the car would do well in the snow.
Well if the Dealer is stupid enough to make such a statement without qualifying it, he is partialy to blame. The "Good in the Snow" bit was obviously part of his sales pitch and, as with any 4x4 with traction control, it probably is much better than a Covette when it comes to getting the power down. His mistake was not saying that it would be much more difficult to stop once it got going. But then that isn't much of a plus point is it?
It's scary how people think they're invincible in their 4x4s.
Reminds me of a couple of years ago when a mate and I were trying to come south over Carter Bar after a fresh dump of snow. We were in his dad's Astra van (
we'd been biking in the Borders) which might've made it if it weren't for loads of numpties sat in the road. Anyway, after a couple of failures at a slope we were waiting for a suitable gap to spin it 'round, when muppet boy comes cruising down at about 50mph in his Suzuki Grand Vitara, smiling smugly as he passes us. Just seconds later he taps the brakes, slides totally out of control, bouncing backwards through a ditch and a fence. I still can't believe how close he came to a Passat that was parked up on the verge. Hopefully he learned a lesson without taking out someone else ... it would've been a major accident.
Amazing how ignorant some people are. More driver training and less numpties on the roads please.
Reminds me of a couple of years ago when a mate and I were trying to come south over Carter Bar after a fresh dump of snow. We were in his dad's Astra van (
we'd been biking in the Borders) which might've made it if it weren't for loads of numpties sat in the road. Anyway, after a couple of failures at a slope we were waiting for a suitable gap to spin it 'round, when muppet boy comes cruising down at about 50mph in his Suzuki Grand Vitara, smiling smugly as he passes us. Just seconds later he taps the brakes, slides totally out of control, bouncing backwards through a ditch and a fence. I still can't believe how close he came to a Passat that was parked up on the verge. Hopefully he learned a lesson without taking out someone else ... it would've been a major accident. Amazing how ignorant some people are. More driver training and less numpties on the roads please.
Snow driving is about the tyres, not 2wd or 4wd.
2wd or 4wd will be rubbish on snow with wide big-treadblock summer tyres on (although the 4wd will help increase traction under power). The common misconception is that 4wd increases cornering or braking ability - it doesn't.
On proper winter or snow tyres however any vehicle is OK, 2wd or 4wd and the grip from them is amazing.
Guy
GuyR said:Well it does to some extent, cos when you use gears to slow you down in a 4WD car in the snow (ABS stops you braking) it works a lot better than in a 2WD car.
The common misconception is that 4wd increases cornering or braking ability - it doesn't.
I do generally agree with you though - tyres are the key.
Most big 4X4`s are crap in the snow because of their weight , i had a Jeep GC and it was awful plenty of tracktion but felt like it could slide off the road at any time
Tyres are vital here in Sweden its "The Law" to have winter tyres fitted between 1st Dec to 1st March no winter tyres no insurance by the way
, i have just gone through the hoops to fit them to my ML , finding right size for the ML was a problem .
Tyres are vital here in Sweden its "The Law" to have winter tyres fitted between 1st Dec to 1st March no winter tyres no insurance by the way
, i have just gone through the hoops to fit them to my ML , finding right size for the ML was a problem . GuyR said:
Snow driving is about the tyres, not 2wd or 4wd.
2wd or 4wd will be rubbish on snow with wide big-treadblock summer tyres on (although the 4wd will help increase traction under power). The common misconception is that 4wd increases cornering or braking ability - it doesn't.
On proper winter or snow tyres however any vehicle is OK, 2wd or 4wd and the grip from them is amazing.
Guy
Guy is right however when driving on snow in 2WD 996 with or without winter tyres you need to turn off PSM it just does not think quick enough to deal with snow (found out on last years ski trip) I wonder how many dealers tell punters this?
>> Edited by lightweight on Friday 19th December 13:30
>> Edited by lightweight on Friday 19th December 13:34
In my experience, I have witnessed some of the most appalling snow driving in the States. I spend quite a bit of time over in NJ and when the snow arrives its real entertainment!
The ploughs come out quite quickly and usually clear the two left lanes. In the commuting hours everyone packs these lanes pootling along nicely. The snow packed right hand lanes are usually occupied by 4X4s
doing 55-65 mph, driven by idots with big smug grins on their faces. I can only assume that they are thinking that they are invincible, up there in their nice warm heated seats.
Eveything works just perfectly, until they hit the brakes and then, all hell breaks loose......
The ploughs come out quite quickly and usually clear the two left lanes. In the commuting hours everyone packs these lanes pootling along nicely. The snow packed right hand lanes are usually occupied by 4X4s
doing 55-65 mph, driven by idots with big smug grins on their faces. I can only assume that they are thinking that they are invincible, up there in their nice warm heated seats.
Eveything works just perfectly, until they hit the brakes and then, all hell breaks loose......
craigalsop said:
The common misconception is that 4wd increases cornering or braking ability - it doesn't.
Well it does to some extent, cos when you use gears to slow you down in a 4WD car in the snow (ABS stops you braking) it works a lot better than in a 2WD car.
I do generally agree with you though - tyres are the key.
You don`t really want to be slowing the car down with the gearbox / engine. The problem doing that is whilst the engine and box are big tough powerful individuals they are sadly lacking in brain cells and will just let the wheels lock up. The brakes on the other hand (especially on a Porsche) are very clever and will allow the wheels to keep turning (and you to keep steering)
You have the same problem racing, if you dump the clutch and let the engine slow the car (epecially if the back is light anyway from braking) the rear wheels will lock up and your arse will want to have a sneaky peek at the barrier.
The problem a 4wd has when cornering is that it will naturally induce understeer as the driven wheels loose the battle gripping the snow.
Where 4wd wins is laying the power onto the ground, especially in a straight line, again your Cayenne is a real brain box switching drive to which ever wheel can best use it.
The trick is to try and not get the car sliding in the first place, once you`re on the move you`re pretty must a tourist enjoying the view waiting for the crunch !
Henry
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't ABS useless for braking in the snow? I thought it was better if the wheels lock up, creating a mound of snow in front of the tyres thus slowing the car down.
Can't see that working on ice though.
Tyres are the most important thing
Reminds me of that video of the 996 driving round the 'ring in the snow
very impressive.
Can't see that working on ice though.
Tyres are the most important thing
Reminds me of that video of the 996 driving round the 'ring in the snow
very impressive.I suppose if it was virgin snow and plenty deep.
The problem is we generally all see snow on the road, other users have compacted it down then it turns good and icy and you start slidin` all over the place.
As with all things grip-wise it is indeed the tyres which ultimately decide your fate.
Henry
The problem is we generally all see snow on the road, other users have compacted it down then it turns good and icy and you start slidin` all over the place.
As with all things grip-wise it is indeed the tyres which ultimately decide your fate.
Henry
To be honest, I think alot of people (mostly numpties) put too much faith in the electrical wizardry in their cars.
Admittedly they are very advanced pieces of kit but as has been said it DOES NOT make you invincible.
They are only there to AID you getting 'out of the shit', you still have to have an ounce of an idea to help yourself, the technology won't do it all for you, not even in a Skyline I reckon (depending how deep in you got).
>> Edited by Graham.J on Saturday 20th December 02:02
Admittedly they are very advanced pieces of kit but as has been said it DOES NOT make you invincible.
They are only there to AID you getting 'out of the shit', you still have to have an ounce of an idea to help yourself, the technology won't do it all for you, not even in a Skyline I reckon (depending how deep in you got).
>> Edited by Graham.J on Saturday 20th December 02:02
I would agree with HenryF's comments totally regarding engine braking and general handling charicteristics of 4x4's in the snow.
Re: ABS The only problem with ABS in the snow/ice is that if all 4 wheels lock up the car thinks it is stationary and so doesn't induce ABS.
Re: Locking up and using the snow to stop you - I've never found that the snow builds fast enough to stop 2 tonnes.
Re: ABS The only problem with ABS in the snow/ice is that if all 4 wheels lock up the car thinks it is stationary and so doesn't induce ABS.
Re: Locking up and using the snow to stop you - I've never found that the snow builds fast enough to stop 2 tonnes.
henry-F said:Sure I do
You don`t really want to be slowing the car down with the gearbox / engine. The problem doing that is whilst the engine and box are big tough powerful individuals they are sadly lacking in brain cells and will just let the wheels lock up.
I can personally vouch for the fact that my car (Impreza P1) will stop better using the gears in snow than the brakes. In fact I went out tonight & tested again in the snow. 
In fact, unless the engine is stalled, how could the wheels ever lock up?
henry-F said:I beg to differ - in my limited experience (having driven 4x4 Imprezas & Cosworths each winter in the snow for over a decade) as soon as the snow is more than an inch or so, as you turn, the front wheels dig in, and you in fact end up with oversteer. (With small amounts of snow, and with ice, the behaviour is as you describe)
The brakes on the other hand (especially on a Porsche) are very clever and will allow the wheels to keep turning (and you to keep steering)
You have the same problem racing, if you dump the clutch and let the engine slow the car (epecially if the back is light anyway from braking) the rear wheels will lock up and your arse will want to have a sneaky peek at the barrier.
The problem a 4wd has when cornering is that it will naturally induce understeer as the driven wheels loose the battle gripping the snow.
henry-F said:Naaa, get the car set up & sliding early, that way you can control where it slides to
The trick is to try and not get the car sliding in the first place, once you`re on the move you`re pretty must a tourist enjoying the view waiting for the crunch ! Henry
What happens is the car trys to carry on going at the same speed, your engine slows the wheels but because it takes a while to spin the engine up the tyres can slip on the surface.
The particular problem you`ll have in the scooby is that once the front wheels slide it can take a good while to get them under pilot control and you`ll be making friends with a few pavements!
This is particularly the case with road tyres which will fill the grooves with snow. They also tend to have lovely big outside tread blocks to cope with all that cornering force, sadly what snow tyres want is a sharp edge and wide grooves.
Re: "setting the car up" good luck big fella ! Down here the roads are pretty narrow, the lamp posts hard and the pedestrians soft ! All these tehniques are great in wide open spaces and consistent surface conditions. With tarmac underneath the snow you stand a good chance of hitting compacted and smooth snow or ice which will sadly render your road tyres useless.
Henry
The particular problem you`ll have in the scooby is that once the front wheels slide it can take a good while to get them under pilot control and you`ll be making friends with a few pavements!
This is particularly the case with road tyres which will fill the grooves with snow. They also tend to have lovely big outside tread blocks to cope with all that cornering force, sadly what snow tyres want is a sharp edge and wide grooves.
Re: "setting the car up" good luck big fella ! Down here the roads are pretty narrow, the lamp posts hard and the pedestrians soft ! All these tehniques are great in wide open spaces and consistent surface conditions. With tarmac underneath the snow you stand a good chance of hitting compacted and smooth snow or ice which will sadly render your road tyres useless.
Henry
ABS? traction control? -luxury.
Try a ten year old Pajero in snow and ice and every input has it going off in another direction
-particularly entertaining on downward slopes where even low ratio feels too fast and you have to cadence brake.......
You guys are SPOILT!!
...........can't wait for some snow...
Melv
Try a ten year old Pajero in snow and ice and every input has it going off in another direction
-particularly entertaining on downward slopes where even low ratio feels too fast and you have to cadence brake....... You guys are SPOILT!!
...........can't wait for some snow...
Melv
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