Boxster to Elise
Discussion
I have finally decided that my lovely boxster 2.7 has to go. Im trying to take advantage of the property prices at the moment and looking at something a bit cheaper to run.
However im a petrolhead and wouldn't be happy with a golf. So that said I went to the Lotus dealer to see what was on offer, an Elise S2 2004 plate, about 45K in that purple/blue colour........im sure you guys will know which I mean. Anyway they want £14,000 for it. Does that sound reasonable..........also I don't know a lot about the elise, apart from to stay away from the K-Series engine due to HGF.
What should I look out for on an Elise S2, common problems, big repairs I may need to budget for.
The mistake I made with my boxster is that I didn't research, and then realised that it was costing more to run and maintain than my 996 I had previously.
Im 26 and the boxster is £1300 a year at the moment to insure, id imagine the Elise to be slightly cheaper.
The main reason for change is fuel consumption, I average about 25mpg, where as id probably look at 40mpg in the Lotus.
Any thoughts appreciated
However im a petrolhead and wouldn't be happy with a golf. So that said I went to the Lotus dealer to see what was on offer, an Elise S2 2004 plate, about 45K in that purple/blue colour........im sure you guys will know which I mean. Anyway they want £14,000 for it. Does that sound reasonable..........also I don't know a lot about the elise, apart from to stay away from the K-Series engine due to HGF.
What should I look out for on an Elise S2, common problems, big repairs I may need to budget for.
The mistake I made with my boxster is that I didn't research, and then realised that it was costing more to run and maintain than my 996 I had previously.
Im 26 and the boxster is £1300 a year at the moment to insure, id imagine the Elise to be slightly cheaper.
The main reason for change is fuel consumption, I average about 25mpg, where as id probably look at 40mpg in the Lotus.
Any thoughts appreciated
You don't say which elise you are looking at. If it's a 111R (toyota engine) then it's a very good price. If it's a 111S (K series engine) then it's still a reasonable price, but to be honest it depends a fair amount on condition and a little bit on spec (touring, hardtop etc?)
Sure the K-series does have a reputation for HGF but if you want good fuel economy then this is the one to go for. 40 mpg is easily achievable from a 111S but you'll have to drive with a feather foot to get that fromn a 111R. The 111S is also a bit cheaper on road tax, about 80 quid cheaper next year I think (not 100% sure on this for 2004 cars).
Lots of 111S drivers will argue that their cars are better for 'normal road'riving as the torque spread is a bit flatter than the 111R though I think that this is due to perception - the 111R kicks you in the guts above 6K rpm so just 'feels' sluggish below that.
Have a look at www.seloc.org for loads of chat on all of this stuff.
Good luck!
Sure the K-series does have a reputation for HGF but if you want good fuel economy then this is the one to go for. 40 mpg is easily achievable from a 111S but you'll have to drive with a feather foot to get that fromn a 111R. The 111S is also a bit cheaper on road tax, about 80 quid cheaper next year I think (not 100% sure on this for 2004 cars).
Lots of 111S drivers will argue that their cars are better for 'normal road'riving as the torque spread is a bit flatter than the 111R though I think that this is due to perception - the 111R kicks you in the guts above 6K rpm so just 'feels' sluggish below that.
Have a look at www.seloc.org for loads of chat on all of this stuff.
Good luck!
You didnt say which model Lotus you were looking at and some S2s still have the creaded (but cheap to replace / repair) K series. If it is a Yota engine then the car will be a 111R like mine.
If so, servicing should be fairly reasonable - the car doesnt have the A,B,C services of the K series but a simple standard annual / mileage service. I would be surprised if it wasnt cheaper than a Porker but I cant really say since I have never had the Porker and service the Lotus myself.
people will talk to you about over revving damage on the Yota engine (usually K series owners trying to reply to the head gasket issue ;-) ) and it is possible if someone has missed a gear changing down on track to take the engine past 10k revs and do it some damage. Possible but uncommon. Nevertheless, get an ECU printout before you buy. Not a foolproof answer, but some help.
In todays market the price you mention sounds high to me. I wouldnt expect to get more than 18k for my 10000 mile 07 car with aircon, touring pack , traction control, black alloys. So look around at the prices on this forum and offer 2k less than they are asking.
A functioning aircon is a good extra - the car's ventilation isnt good.
P.S. Just had a look at some of the asking prices and either my car is worth more than I thought or there are a lot of people with silly ideas of what a car is worth in a depression. Against the private ad prices your 14k looks reasonable. But then when ever did dealers give bargains?
P.P.S. One thing you should check for carefully is any repaired accident damage to the chassis. TBH I wouldnt go near a repaired car because of the way it's made when new. Cannot be duplicated by a repair shop.
If so, servicing should be fairly reasonable - the car doesnt have the A,B,C services of the K series but a simple standard annual / mileage service. I would be surprised if it wasnt cheaper than a Porker but I cant really say since I have never had the Porker and service the Lotus myself.
people will talk to you about over revving damage on the Yota engine (usually K series owners trying to reply to the head gasket issue ;-) ) and it is possible if someone has missed a gear changing down on track to take the engine past 10k revs and do it some damage. Possible but uncommon. Nevertheless, get an ECU printout before you buy. Not a foolproof answer, but some help.
In todays market the price you mention sounds high to me. I wouldnt expect to get more than 18k for my 10000 mile 07 car with aircon, touring pack , traction control, black alloys. So look around at the prices on this forum and offer 2k less than they are asking.
A functioning aircon is a good extra - the car's ventilation isnt good.
P.S. Just had a look at some of the asking prices and either my car is worth more than I thought or there are a lot of people with silly ideas of what a car is worth in a depression. Against the private ad prices your 14k looks reasonable. But then when ever did dealers give bargains?
P.P.S. One thing you should check for carefully is any repaired accident damage to the chassis. TBH I wouldnt go near a repaired car because of the way it's made when new. Cannot be duplicated by a repair shop.
Edited by bordseye on Wednesday 29th July 17:34
Edited by bordseye on Wednesday 29th July 17:35
[quote=bordseye]
In todays market the price you mention sounds high to me. I wouldnt expect to get more than 18k for my 10000 mile 07 car with aircon, touring pack , traction control, black alloys. So look around at the prices on this forum and offer 2k less than they are asking.
Blimey, you're valuing your car low!
Don't forget he's looking at a dealer so I reckon the price looks ok, although I suppose the miles are a bit high if its a 111S.
In todays market the price you mention sounds high to me. I wouldnt expect to get more than 18k for my 10000 mile 07 car with aircon, touring pack , traction control, black alloys. So look around at the prices on this forum and offer 2k less than they are asking.
Blimey, you're valuing your car low!
Don't forget he's looking at a dealer so I reckon the price looks ok, although I suppose the miles are a bit high if its a 111S.
It sounds a bit much for a 111S at that mileage unless it's immaculate. Probably about right if it's a 111R.
The 111R has the 189bhp Toyota engine, the 111S has a 156bhp K-series but the 111R is a fair bit heavier so the performance isn't as different as you'd think (for example Lotus say 0-60 takes 4.9 seconds in the 111R and 5.0 in the 111S; 0-100 takes 12.x and 14 respectively). There's a few other differences, the main one being that the 111R has a brake servo and ABS. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is open to debate. The brake pedal setup was awful on the earlier 111Rs that I have driven, with a huge amount of dead travel before it starts to bite.
The MY04 cars had the last of the fixes that Lotus applies to stop them leaking, and by and large they seemed to work - my 04 car has certainly never let in a drop.
Running costs wise, I reckon I can afford to pay for a HGF every two years with the savings on fuel; the K-series uses significantly less and thus far mine has been fine. The K-series is also cheaper to tax but oddly seems more expensive to insure. Parts seem a bit cheaper for the Rover engine.
I drove both cars and thought the 111S was the better car, but many people did the same and preferred the Toyota. It mostly comes down to how you like your power delivery.
An MY04 car (with either engine) will have the really badly designed heater fan resistor pack which will fail at some point if it hasn't been sorted already. It's a cheap enough part but expensive job because you have to take the whole front of the car to bits to get at it.
The 111R has the 189bhp Toyota engine, the 111S has a 156bhp K-series but the 111R is a fair bit heavier so the performance isn't as different as you'd think (for example Lotus say 0-60 takes 4.9 seconds in the 111R and 5.0 in the 111S; 0-100 takes 12.x and 14 respectively). There's a few other differences, the main one being that the 111R has a brake servo and ABS. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is open to debate. The brake pedal setup was awful on the earlier 111Rs that I have driven, with a huge amount of dead travel before it starts to bite.
The MY04 cars had the last of the fixes that Lotus applies to stop them leaking, and by and large they seemed to work - my 04 car has certainly never let in a drop.
Running costs wise, I reckon I can afford to pay for a HGF every two years with the savings on fuel; the K-series uses significantly less and thus far mine has been fine. The K-series is also cheaper to tax but oddly seems more expensive to insure. Parts seem a bit cheaper for the Rover engine.
I drove both cars and thought the 111S was the better car, but many people did the same and preferred the Toyota. It mostly comes down to how you like your power delivery.
An MY04 car (with either engine) will have the really badly designed heater fan resistor pack which will fail at some point if it hasn't been sorted already. It's a cheap enough part but expensive job because you have to take the whole front of the car to bits to get at it.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 29th July 17:48
Hi thanks for the replies, its a 111R with the Toyota engine. At the moment the prices aren't right to change but im sure they will be ringing me up shortly with a better deal..........after all when has a dealer given their best off straight away.
What is the Toyota engine like for reliability? I will probably do the oil and air filter change myself.
So economy wise, unfortunately its something which has got me with the boxster, and i have always maintained that it should be the least of my worries, but times are hard....er
A few questions if I may:
1) how to much to fill the tank
2) on average with normal driving how many miles do you get from said tank
3) does the lotus eat tires, my boxster does, like easily every 8 months and at £280 a tire im hoping to reduce this cost significantly
cheers
What is the Toyota engine like for reliability? I will probably do the oil and air filter change myself.
So economy wise, unfortunately its something which has got me with the boxster, and i have always maintained that it should be the least of my worries, but times are hard....er
A few questions if I may:
1) how to much to fill the tank
2) on average with normal driving how many miles do you get from said tank
3) does the lotus eat tires, my boxster does, like easily every 8 months and at £280 a tire im hoping to reduce this cost significantly
cheers
I think the 111R has a 42 litre tank (the 111S is 32 litre). Range wise, you'll get about 200-300 miles out of either car depending on how and where you drive it.
I've yet to get through a set of tyres and they weren't new when I bought the car, but I'd guess I'd get something like 15-20k miles from a set and I don't drive particularly gently. If you set the geometry up more aggressively I suppose they wear faster.
The Toyota engine seems very reliable on the road. Pushing hard on the track on sticky rubber can cause some oil starvation problems and it's apparently easy to grab the wrong gear and over-rev the engine when down-shifting.
I've yet to get through a set of tyres and they weren't new when I bought the car, but I'd guess I'd get something like 15-20k miles from a set and I don't drive particularly gently. If you set the geometry up more aggressively I suppose they wear faster.
The Toyota engine seems very reliable on the road. Pushing hard on the track on sticky rubber can cause some oil starvation problems and it's apparently easy to grab the wrong gear and over-rev the engine when down-shifting.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 29th July 17:54
14k is quite a nice offer from a lotus dealer... tho I guess that probably means a nice price for your car will be tough to achieve
1) how to much to fill the tank
40 quid in an R
2) on average with normal driving how many miles do you get from said tank
250-300 miles... or 70-100 on track
3) does the lotus eat tires, my boxster does, like easily every 8 months and at £280 a tire im hoping to reduce this cost significantly
rears.. probably no more than 8-10k miles, fronts may last twice that, or annoyingly, not quite twice as long, but they are cheaper 500 sheets will cover both ends
1) how to much to fill the tank
40 quid in an R
2) on average with normal driving how many miles do you get from said tank
250-300 miles... or 70-100 on track
3) does the lotus eat tires, my boxster does, like easily every 8 months and at £280 a tire im hoping to reduce this cost significantly
rears.. probably no more than 8-10k miles, fronts may last twice that, or annoyingly, not quite twice as long, but they are cheaper 500 sheets will cover both ends
Edited by subaqua on Wednesday 29th July 20:53
Edited by subaqua on Wednesday 29th July 21:00
A pretty steady 31 to 33 mpg from my 111R on the road. Back tyres shot at 10k but fronts look good for 15. Engine reliability? It's a Toyota - what more can you say? Sure it can be abused (see my post above) but it will be more reliable than anything designed / made in Europe inc your Porker.
One thing I should add. The Porker is an everyday car. It's designed for comfort and convenience as well as performance. The Lotus is a lot less of a compromise and could become very wearing as an only vehicle. Noise, rattles, discomfort, limited luggage, crude softop, crap ventilation. Of course there are lots of plusses but its the negatives that irritate. Depends on you, and your age.
One thing I should add. The Porker is an everyday car. It's designed for comfort and convenience as well as performance. The Lotus is a lot less of a compromise and could become very wearing as an only vehicle. Noise, rattles, discomfort, limited luggage, crude softop, crap ventilation. Of course there are lots of plusses but its the negatives that irritate. Depends on you, and your age.
bordseye said:
In todays market the price you mention sounds high to me. I wouldnt expect to get more than 18k for my 10000 mile 07 car with aircon, touring pack , traction control, black alloys. So look around at the prices on this forum and offer 2k less than they are asking.
Sometimes I do wonder about your comments bordseye, What a load of rubbish to offer 2K less than asking! Maybe about 500 pounds is realistic but your on a different planet to think the prices are over 2K what they should be. The Elises are selling well and I am sure that you could get slightly more than 18 if in VGC with all those extra's. Edited by bordseye on Wednesday 29th July 17:35
Everyone will back the car they own. I went out in a yota car and found it was all or nothing, so that prompted me to try the K series 111's, which I bought. As discussed before, road tax will be cheaper and is at the moment.I pay I think ( due next month) £145 a year. Also, I can manage 45 mpg on a steady run at .8 leptons.Servicing was expensive this year at £750, but that was the bells and whistles, so the next few years will be cheaper. Faults, yes HGF, not had it yet, but is always on my mind. If it is done properly, with all the right checks, then a replacement better gasket will cure.Radiators splitting affect all cars and can be replaced with an alloy one. Some jobs are easy and even tho' my car had aircon and it was my first surgery, was not daunted at all with doing the rad change.Fan speed resistors will also affect all the cars you are looking at.There have been issues with clutches on yota's at about 20 k miles for some weird reason.Really thats it.You don't need to face dealer extortion to have a service history. There are decent outfits out there who will do as good or better job.
Mate has a boxster, which he is selling and invariably every bill came in with 4 figures every time, so will be cheaper than the porker.
Mate has a boxster, which he is selling and invariably every bill came in with 4 figures every time, so will be cheaper than the porker.
Justin S said:
There have been issues with clutches on yota's at about 20 k miles for some weird reason.Really thats it.You don't need to face dealer extortion to have a service history. There are decent outfits out there who will do as good or better job.
My 111R Clutch has gone at 21500 miles but may not be a wear issue, I should find out this week what the exact issue is. My local dealer normally is Lipscomb's and they are good both in terms of price and service. As a main dealer they have really been brillant, and they have added to the excellent ownership experience.
My BMW service is another story, I dont even get a free fresh coffee (I do at Lipscomb's) Instead have to deal with average service and pay for Instant Coffee.
You will not regret a change to Lotus, its a world of friendly people (most of the time and probably one of the best drives on the market for the money. If you dont like it your on the wrong road!
Justin S said:
yota car... all or nothing
By way of experiment, I measured the 0-60 time for a 111R short-shifting at 6000rpm (using Dynolicious). I got 6.9 seconds, compared to 5.8 seconds using all the revs. So not all, by any means, but not nothing either, I'd say - and to compare those times to published ones for other cars, you probably need to knock the best part of second off for me not being willing to break my transmission or fry my clutch.Point being that it's all relative.
Stu_00 said:
Sometimes I do wonder about your comments bordseye, What a load of rubbish to offer 2K less than asking! Maybe about 500 pounds is realistic but your on a different planet to think the prices are over 2K what they should be. The Elises are selling well and I am sure that you could get slightly more than 18 if in VGC with all those extra's.
There are ots of desperate people about, plokers who bought with a loan when times were good and are now overstretched. And first offer is only establishing the area you haggle in anyway.Got 1500 off my car when I bought it.
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