Discussion
Right.
So three years ago I bought what turns out to have been a pretty good Griff. All but 270 BHP and 320 ft.lbs and smooth as a very smooth thing. 107,000 miles still on original camshaft. It's coming up to 18 years old so along with a key to the door I thought I'd buy it some presents.
270 and 320 are good numbers but of course, this was not enough so I've done various external, bolt-on mods including smooth bore induction hoses, tuned manifolds, plenum insulator, etc. yet seen no gains. Also tried the torqueflow induction system which was ineffective on my engine.
I have a set of ACT CF flared trumpets to try next along with a 72mm plenum but I don't hold out a lot of hope. I fear something more drastic/remedial is required.
Two things cropped up at the Growl that were of interest to me:
1. Injectors. Talking to cinquecento and Gary from Crazy Horses they may be a weak link in my chain. My car was over-fuelling badly which raised the issue but I don't think they were relevant to my issues on the day. However, cinquecento said that when he replaced the stock injectors with better ones from Bosch the improvement was noticeable.
2. Throttle bodies. I've since had a brief chat with wadsapple who said they made a remarkable difference to his car and I've often seen them mentioned. If I'm honest I don't even know what they are so if nothing else would someone please enlighten me?
3. Camshaft. Where do I start?
One thing that concerns me is that most of the mods mentioned have all been done to otherwise standard 500s or in wadsapple's case quite a special JE 520. Clearly I'd expect to see different results on a 'stock' 500 and a rather well spec'd special.
I think mine was well set up and tuned by TVR and may well be a factory big valve which may explain why it's proving so difficult to get appreciable gains with bolt on goodies.
My pockets are not deep but I'd like more grunt across the range for primarily quick-ish road use and the occasional track day.
So three years ago I bought what turns out to have been a pretty good Griff. All but 270 BHP and 320 ft.lbs and smooth as a very smooth thing. 107,000 miles still on original camshaft. It's coming up to 18 years old so along with a key to the door I thought I'd buy it some presents.
270 and 320 are good numbers but of course, this was not enough so I've done various external, bolt-on mods including smooth bore induction hoses, tuned manifolds, plenum insulator, etc. yet seen no gains. Also tried the torqueflow induction system which was ineffective on my engine.
I have a set of ACT CF flared trumpets to try next along with a 72mm plenum but I don't hold out a lot of hope. I fear something more drastic/remedial is required.
Two things cropped up at the Growl that were of interest to me:
1. Injectors. Talking to cinquecento and Gary from Crazy Horses they may be a weak link in my chain. My car was over-fuelling badly which raised the issue but I don't think they were relevant to my issues on the day. However, cinquecento said that when he replaced the stock injectors with better ones from Bosch the improvement was noticeable.
2. Throttle bodies. I've since had a brief chat with wadsapple who said they made a remarkable difference to his car and I've often seen them mentioned. If I'm honest I don't even know what they are so if nothing else would someone please enlighten me?
3. Camshaft. Where do I start?
One thing that concerns me is that most of the mods mentioned have all been done to otherwise standard 500s or in wadsapple's case quite a special JE 520. Clearly I'd expect to see different results on a 'stock' 500 and a rather well spec'd special.
I think mine was well set up and tuned by TVR and may well be a factory big valve which may explain why it's proving so difficult to get appreciable gains with bolt on goodies.
My pockets are not deep but I'd like more grunt across the range for primarily quick-ish road use and the occasional track day.
Re Injectors, had a great lesson from Paul at Austec about spray patterns and how certain injectors work.
First example is on a standard 3.9 popped into a TR6 (www.letherby.com), a poor 150 ish bhp produced from a standard rebuilt engine.
Injector removed and put on a machine to clean and show its patterns.
It was like a hose pipe! All changed to a set of 4.2 cerbera cleaned with new filters.
After re mapping by Mark Adams a healthy 190 bhp.
Now the TVR, new engine built by Austec to Pauls spec gave 283.1 bhp new injectors and re mapped after Leman gave 297.3 bhp not a fantastic difference this time but still improved, it might also of been higher if it was not so hot on the second time (35.4 deg C against 24.2 deg C first time round)
Didnt put P500 KO on the rolling road at the growl as I was unsure how my warranty would stand up??
Hope this is of help.
First example is on a standard 3.9 popped into a TR6 (www.letherby.com), a poor 150 ish bhp produced from a standard rebuilt engine.
Injector removed and put on a machine to clean and show its patterns.
It was like a hose pipe! All changed to a set of 4.2 cerbera cleaned with new filters.
After re mapping by Mark Adams a healthy 190 bhp.
Now the TVR, new engine built by Austec to Pauls spec gave 283.1 bhp new injectors and re mapped after Leman gave 297.3 bhp not a fantastic difference this time but still improved, it might also of been higher if it was not so hot on the second time (35.4 deg C against 24.2 deg C first time round)
Didnt put P500 KO on the rolling road at the growl as I was unsure how my warranty would stand up??
Hope this is of help.
LG, Good to meet you at the Growl!
You won't go far wrong with trying to work your way towards my spec of engine or similar.
It depends on ultimately where you want to end up but i'm pretty happy with the output and performance of my lump.
My car is a genuine 4.5 big valve, all standard spec for that car plus a few minor extra bits. Results (according to Austec and TVR Power, the Dyno charts show 331bhp)
Basic engine is completely original spec:
4.5 litre cross bolted block
Forged Steel cross drilled crank
steel rods
Cosworth pistons
435 cam (Standard 500 cam)
Big valve heads (standard 500 heads)plus porting
This is the standard "Tuscan challenge" spec engine fitted to the 4.5 big valve cars
On top of the standard spec above, it now has ACT tripple plenum, Act carbon trumpets, ACT manifolds, Bosch injectors, Omex ignition.
Feel free to mail me for further info.
Throttle bodies will make a big difference, especially if you can get a set of "Jenvey Dynamic" throttle bodies.
Regards
Mike
You won't go far wrong with trying to work your way towards my spec of engine or similar.
It depends on ultimately where you want to end up but i'm pretty happy with the output and performance of my lump.
My car is a genuine 4.5 big valve, all standard spec for that car plus a few minor extra bits. Results (according to Austec and TVR Power, the Dyno charts show 331bhp)
Basic engine is completely original spec:
4.5 litre cross bolted block
Forged Steel cross drilled crank
steel rods
Cosworth pistons
435 cam (Standard 500 cam)
Big valve heads (standard 500 heads)plus porting
This is the standard "Tuscan challenge" spec engine fitted to the 4.5 big valve cars
On top of the standard spec above, it now has ACT tripple plenum, Act carbon trumpets, ACT manifolds, Bosch injectors, Omex ignition.
Feel free to mail me for further info.
Throttle bodies will make a big difference, especially if you can get a set of "Jenvey Dynamic" throttle bodies.
Regards
Mike
Edited by culminator on Tuesday 4th August 14:48
Send your RR graph to Rob,and he'll tell you if there is anything wrong with your cam. I wouldn't have thought there can be much wrong with it from what's been reported in the past. A more manly cam will obviously yield improvements, getting Rob to design one to do what YOU want and your motor spec is obviously always a bog step forward.
TB's are great, best to get the cam to suit (chicken & egg otherwise IMHO) but very expensive... I have (ext cheap!) Wildcat ones like Alans (but only 56mm
) they do raise problems for piping air in, balance pipes, PCV, stat location... not insurmountable.
TB's are great, best to get the cam to suit (chicken & egg otherwise IMHO) but very expensive... I have (ext cheap!) Wildcat ones like Alans (but only 56mm
) they do raise problems for piping air in, balance pipes, PCV, stat location... not insurmountable.Funnily enough I am thinking the same thing about what to do next... You beat me to posting the question.
I'd suggest an aftermarket ECU to get rid of the AFM and distributor as a first step. It'll make more torque through the rev range and cruise will be better but you'll get no more top end. This will give you flexibility to deal with anything else you plan.
Remember my standard 500 bottom end and heads with an H404 cam and (lots of) bolt-on stuff made more power at the Growl than the JE 5.2. I must have done something right.
I'd suggest an aftermarket ECU to get rid of the AFM and distributor as a first step. It'll make more torque through the rev range and cruise will be better but you'll get no more top end. This will give you flexibility to deal with anything else you plan.
Remember my standard 500 bottom end and heads with an H404 cam and (lots of) bolt-on stuff made more power at the Growl than the JE 5.2. I must have done something right.
Edited by dnb on Tuesday 4th August 17:25
I was starting to wonder this too.
Then Del mentioned this was happening on Sunday
Mmmmmm, Click Me
Think I might take them up on the offer.
Deb didn't even blink when I talked about building one, and how much they cost
Then Del mentioned this was happening on Sunday
Mmmmmm, Click Me
Think I might take them up on the offer.
Deb didn't even blink when I talked about building one, and how much they cost
Edited by Barreti on Tuesday 4th August 17:37
Thanks for the quick replies chaps - I knew I could depend on you.
...to muddy the waters.
Culminator - I loved your car and the performance sounds very impressive but it's just too much for me, certainly in one go. Bigger block, forged crank, cozzie pistons - where would it end?
I should've said I'm fairly confident I want to keep it appearing to be fairly standard, if possible.
For that reason checking/cleaning/upgrading the injectors is I think on the cards as nobody's yet suggested it'll be a waste of time, effort and money with potentially a benefit.
Throttle bodies - I still don't know what they are but for me I think they're maybe a step or two down the road if I can't find what I want after this little lot.
I read clive f's post and liked the sound of that as it makes sense to me (as a technical dunce) because newer is always better, but then I read spend's and maybe he has a point. Even if my camshaft is round it's still doing pretty well...
I'm not keen on the aftermarket ECU route though (sorry dnb) for the reason above - too far from standard for my liking.
I've also spoken to V8D. Interesting chat. I was expecting to be talking about replacing my heads for something a little more racy but it turns out I'll probably do just as well sending mine to them to get them refurbed and fettled. While I'm at it it's an opportunity to check the valves as well. We also spoke about cams - they offered me a pukka stealth camshaft kit which sounds pretty tempting too.
I think I'll take spend's advice and send last years and this years graphs to Rob at V8D to get his opinion but I think it's likely I'll:
1. upgrade injectors
2. refurb/fettle heads
3. stealth cam
Thanks again Tivvers - very grateful.
...to muddy the waters.
Culminator - I loved your car and the performance sounds very impressive but it's just too much for me, certainly in one go. Bigger block, forged crank, cozzie pistons - where would it end?
I should've said I'm fairly confident I want to keep it appearing to be fairly standard, if possible.
For that reason checking/cleaning/upgrading the injectors is I think on the cards as nobody's yet suggested it'll be a waste of time, effort and money with potentially a benefit.
Throttle bodies - I still don't know what they are but for me I think they're maybe a step or two down the road if I can't find what I want after this little lot.
I read clive f's post and liked the sound of that as it makes sense to me (as a technical dunce) because newer is always better, but then I read spend's and maybe he has a point. Even if my camshaft is round it's still doing pretty well...
I'm not keen on the aftermarket ECU route though (sorry dnb) for the reason above - too far from standard for my liking.
I've also spoken to V8D. Interesting chat. I was expecting to be talking about replacing my heads for something a little more racy but it turns out I'll probably do just as well sending mine to them to get them refurbed and fettled. While I'm at it it's an opportunity to check the valves as well. We also spoke about cams - they offered me a pukka stealth camshaft kit which sounds pretty tempting too.
I think I'll take spend's advice and send last years and this years graphs to Rob at V8D to get his opinion but I think it's likely I'll:
1. upgrade injectors
2. refurb/fettle heads
3. stealth cam
Thanks again Tivvers - very grateful.
Grover, I think you should also look at the inlet manifold and trumpet base.
I know you have bought the 38mm superflares, but if you are going to take the heads off,then why not have the inlet manifold port matching checked, (and ported if neccessary) and go for 45mm trumpets.
Of course the inlet may be already ported and matched to the heads.
I still think you need to get the engine out, strip the heads off and look what is already in there and then go from there.
If you plan any trips up to Joo's let me know, I might have a ride up with you.
I know you have bought the 38mm superflares, but if you are going to take the heads off,then why not have the inlet manifold port matching checked, (and ported if neccessary) and go for 45mm trumpets.
Of course the inlet may be already ported and matched to the heads.
I still think you need to get the engine out, strip the heads off and look what is already in there and then go from there.
If you plan any trips up to Joo's let me know, I might have a ride up with you.
I agree whole heartedly Ant., Spend's said something along similar lines... the problem is I need supervision with scissors. Letting me loose with a spanner and sockets is just plain daft.
Even if I found out what a head looks like and where it is I'd have no idea what's underneath it or whether it's stonking or pants. I don't even have a garage where I can take it apart with a braille guide and helpers.
Now, if you know of somewhere within an hour or so of here with free/cheap facilities and not fussy about me leaving a mess I'd probably have a bash... and use you lot to guide me/do it for me and I'll make the tea. And dish out biscuits.
I'm a bit crap like that.
Even if I found out what a head looks like and where it is I'd have no idea what's underneath it or whether it's stonking or pants. I don't even have a garage where I can take it apart with a braille guide and helpers.
Now, if you know of somewhere within an hour or so of here with free/cheap facilities and not fussy about me leaving a mess I'd probably have a bash... and use you lot to guide me/do it for me and I'll make the tea. And dish out biscuits.
I'm a bit crap like that.
LordGrover said:
I agree whole heartedly Ant., Spend's said something along similar lines... the problem is I need supervision with scissors. Letting me loose with a spanner and sockets is just plain daft.
Even if I found out what a head looks like and where it is I'd have no idea what's underneath it or whether it's stonking or pants. I don't even have a garage where I can take it apart with a braille guide and helpers.
Now, if you know of somewhere within an hour or so of here with free/cheap facilities and not fussy about me leaving a mess I'd probably have a bash... and use you lot to guide me/do it for me and I'll make the tea. And dish out biscuits.
I'm a bit crap like that.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH if only you lived closer mate!!!!!!!! Even if I found out what a head looks like and where it is I'd have no idea what's underneath it or whether it's stonking or pants. I don't even have a garage where I can take it apart with a braille guide and helpers.
Now, if you know of somewhere within an hour or so of here with free/cheap facilities and not fussy about me leaving a mess I'd probably have a bash... and use you lot to guide me/do it for me and I'll make the tea. And dish out biscuits.
I'm a bit crap like that.
Ant. said:
Grover, I think you should also look at the inlet manifold and trumpet base.
I know you have bought the 38mm superflares, but if you are going to take the heads off,then why not have the inlet manifold port matching checked, (and ported if neccessary) and go for 45mm trumpets.
I know you have bought the 38mm superflares, but if you are going to take the heads off,then why not have the inlet manifold port matching checked, (and ported if neccessary) and go for 45mm trumpets.
Right now, your intake porting, along with the throttle sizing (you already have the 72 mm laying about) and probably the air mass meter) is your biggest restriction IMO.
I'm having the std intake manifold and 38 mm blended trumpet base swapped for an extensively ported and gas flowed manifold and 45 mm trumpets (the latter from V8D) in a couple of weeks with before and after RR graphs, will report back.
Feckers. 
Especially you quinny.
I'm going to have to give this some thought. You're right - it was great before I started faffing about. I'm now somewhat poorer, no better off and lost some of the character.
I'm going to go out and drink beer. Then change my mind again and post rubbish. After that who knows?
Griffs eh? You gotta love 'em.
Especially you quinny.
I'm going to have to give this some thought. You're right - it was great before I started faffing about. I'm now somewhat poorer, no better off and lost some of the character.
I'm going to go out and drink beer. Then change my mind again and post rubbish. After that who knows?
Griffs eh? You gotta love 'em.
900T-R said:
Right now, your intake porting, along with the throttle sizing (you already have the 72 mm laying about) and probably the air mass meter) is your biggest restriction IMO.
If you read Grovers post, the TF stuff was tried & made no improvement.I was under the impression that the TF kit was bigger butterfly & AFM...
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