Advice needed, what would you do ref s/c & intercooling.
Discussion
After spending many years wasting many thousands of pounds on modding cars and making loads of mistakes in the past im determined not to do the same with this one, broke the first rule when bought the car, saw it got excited and bought it over the phone lol. Turned out the s/c version ive got is not intercooled. Not a problem running the standard power but ive always had the single aim of getting the power to the limits of the LS2 block in standard trim without pushing it too much, that I believe equates to about 600bhp ish? More than enough for me and road use.
No problem I thought just get the intercooler kit and get it fitted, 2 problems, firstly harrop are neither interested in selling separate kit however after many E-mails they will through one of the u.k dealers, second problem is the price, now I dont mind spending it where I see value in it but 2.5k for a heat exchange plate, radiator and a water pump with a few pipes is in my eyes no value at all, clearly harrop putting a mega mark up on the parts.
This then leaves me with a few options that I can see:
1. Get a 9psi pulley along with the manifolds im getting done and new air filter, get it re-mapped upto the limits that can be done without the intercooler and risk it. Not too keen on this idea especially as it will probably never run its true power due to the heat and god knows what it will do to the engine.
2. pay the lot of money for the intercooler kit, then get the pulley changed on the charger and run the power up to the limits of the engine, probably at a cost of roughly £3.5-£4k
3. Get the new TVS1900 charger fitted with intercooler included, smaller pulley and done to the limits of the engine say £7k ish and either trade in my current charger or sell it separately (not sure on value). As this is a more efficient charger would it allow a greater bhp on the standard engine without causing any problems?
As say any advice more than welcome and would be much appreciated. With regards to the engine internals im not looking to touch any of that side probably for at least another 18months to 2 years, even then may only be heads/cam dont think much more than my power aim is required for my intended use of the car.
No problem I thought just get the intercooler kit and get it fitted, 2 problems, firstly harrop are neither interested in selling separate kit however after many E-mails they will through one of the u.k dealers, second problem is the price, now I dont mind spending it where I see value in it but 2.5k for a heat exchange plate, radiator and a water pump with a few pipes is in my eyes no value at all, clearly harrop putting a mega mark up on the parts.
This then leaves me with a few options that I can see:
1. Get a 9psi pulley along with the manifolds im getting done and new air filter, get it re-mapped upto the limits that can be done without the intercooler and risk it. Not too keen on this idea especially as it will probably never run its true power due to the heat and god knows what it will do to the engine.
2. pay the lot of money for the intercooler kit, then get the pulley changed on the charger and run the power up to the limits of the engine, probably at a cost of roughly £3.5-£4k
3. Get the new TVS1900 charger fitted with intercooler included, smaller pulley and done to the limits of the engine say £7k ish and either trade in my current charger or sell it separately (not sure on value). As this is a more efficient charger would it allow a greater bhp on the standard engine without causing any problems?
As say any advice more than welcome and would be much appreciated. With regards to the engine internals im not looking to touch any of that side probably for at least another 18months to 2 years, even then may only be heads/cam dont think much more than my power aim is required for my intended use of the car.
Phantom Mark said:
How about a generic intercooler ??
Sorry if that comes over dumb, but I know CA Automotive sell nicely made generic Intercoolers of all shapes and sizes at sensible money, dunno about all the bits you need with it tho ?
Sorry if that comes over dumb, but I know CA Automotive sell nicely made generic Intercoolers of all shapes and sizes at sensible money, dunno about all the bits you need with it tho ?
The bits to go with are no problem, couple of good engineer friends will gladly make a kit up for me. The big issue is getting the heat exchange plate that fits under the charger so if anyone makes one would love to find out about them!
after_shock said:
TerryS said:
Have you thought of water/methanol injection? Don't get me wrong I would rather have an intercooler, but in your situation I would seriously consider it.
How easy is it to map the car based on such a system running, and how easy is it for it to run out!?
I assume your IAT sensor is in the intake so you would tune based on your intake temps. The modern systems use decent controllers now to allow you to ramp the flow based upon boost pressure. Of course you can run out, but you can add indicators/alarms. I have used AIS before and there systems seem good, but there are many options.
www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Trunk-Mount-Systems/c37/index.html
HTH
You need to speak to Mark at Rapid, he has access to all the bits you need. Take a look at the web site, they are doing a buy back scheme and fitted a TVS is nowhere near 7k unless you buy from the wrong supplier. My uprated intercooler, pump etc was 400 quid. Pick up the phone and do some research is my advice.
wormus said:
You need to speak to Mark at Rapid, he has access to all the bits you need. Take a look at the web site, they are doing a buy back scheme and fitted a TVS is nowhere near 7k unless you buy from the wrong supplier. My uprated intercooler, pump etc was 400 quid. Pick up the phone and do some research is my advice.
Already had a number of E-mails with mark, says the kits are too expensive and works out cheaper to trade my charger in and get a new one fitted. Had a look at the site to be fair and cant see any mention of prices ref superchargers etc
ringram said:
If you want decent power then add a camshaft your air pressure and temps will reduce naturally anyway.
Hell Id bet you can get 600 with just a cam upgrade to what you have now!
Hell Id bet you can get 600 with just a cam upgrade to what you have now!
Its a possibility the problems I see going that route, the s/c wouldnt be intercooled still even if the temps are reduced slightly from the cam, it would then be tempting to still add a smaller pulley and up the boost!
May be a odd way of looking at it from my point but if I do the s/c route and run that to the max I can safely then it stops me trying to get any extra power easily as it would be difficult to gain without doing stuff inside the engine which im never a fan of for some reason.
Hi after-shock,
I have a Harrop intercooled H112 Monaro VXR. I am in the same thinking as you, I don't see why someone would go down the supercharged (forced induction) route without going intercooled.
Technically, it isn't right - I think because these engines are so "bullet proof"... and the engine maps provided to suit are running so rich - you can just about get away with a non intercooled supercharged application. Otherwise, I think there would have been quite a few short term issues along the line. That doesn't say that there won't be any long term issues though.
In your case though, I would definitely go down the intercooled route. It is the only way to be sure and not get caught out. If it was me though, I would also "shop around". I wouldn't settle for the figures that you have been quoted for the Harrop setup. It is a great product, but I wouldn't pay that premium for one.
Has anyone actually got any pictures of the Harrop under-charger heat exchanger? It can't be that "special" and "custom". I would have thought that an equivalent can be fabricated quite easily. And like you said, all of the other parts in the kit can be replaced or found at a good price quite easily.
Failing that, Rapid GB and the charger unit exchange basis deal would be my next port of call for sure.
I have a Harrop intercooled H112 Monaro VXR. I am in the same thinking as you, I don't see why someone would go down the supercharged (forced induction) route without going intercooled.
Technically, it isn't right - I think because these engines are so "bullet proof"... and the engine maps provided to suit are running so rich - you can just about get away with a non intercooled supercharged application. Otherwise, I think there would have been quite a few short term issues along the line. That doesn't say that there won't be any long term issues though.
In your case though, I would definitely go down the intercooled route. It is the only way to be sure and not get caught out. If it was me though, I would also "shop around". I wouldn't settle for the figures that you have been quoted for the Harrop setup. It is a great product, but I wouldn't pay that premium for one.
Has anyone actually got any pictures of the Harrop under-charger heat exchanger? It can't be that "special" and "custom". I would have thought that an equivalent can be fabricated quite easily. And like you said, all of the other parts in the kit can be replaced or found at a good price quite easily.
Failing that, Rapid GB and the charger unit exchange basis deal would be my next port of call for sure.
Edited by Tiger_kpt on Wednesday 5th August 08:24
Well_Fans said:
he's got the new tvs2300 from magnacharger and seems quite excited about it from his thread on the subject 
Yes I am, especially as I know the output, just waiting for the graphs. Car being MOTd today then I should get it back.
I could be wrong but I don't think Harrop have released their TVS yet. The Maggie has been around for a while and it's a brilliant piece of kit. Intake temps on mine are just 2-3 degrees above ambient on 14psi. The 2300 is for built engines like mine, on a standard LS2 or similar you're probably better off with a 1900.
Given the bad news about the intercooler I guess you need to decide a power level you want and then plan towards it.
The engine are anything but bulletproof.
The pistons are very weak, and they are the main limiting factor when tuning. Whilst detonation is always bad.....even mild amounts will spell and end to the pistons.
At the minute, although far from ideal, water injection would be by far the cheapest option to try and control temperatures.
Its as easy to run out as your washer bottle....a little driver involvement with maintentance goes a long way to ensuring it doesnt run out.
Biggest concern is pump failure. But if it is tuned with respect to intake charge temps, then it can be pretty safe. Although that method does mean its slightly slower to react.
As for installing and tuning. Its easy for anyone competent with such tasks.
A cam/head package could be another option..but money would probably be better spent on a better/larger supercharger.
The pistons are very weak, and they are the main limiting factor when tuning. Whilst detonation is always bad.....even mild amounts will spell and end to the pistons.
At the minute, although far from ideal, water injection would be by far the cheapest option to try and control temperatures.
Its as easy to run out as your washer bottle....a little driver involvement with maintentance goes a long way to ensuring it doesnt run out.
Biggest concern is pump failure. But if it is tuned with respect to intake charge temps, then it can be pretty safe. Although that method does mean its slightly slower to react.
As for installing and tuning. Its easy for anyone competent with such tasks.
A cam/head package could be another option..but money would probably be better spent on a better/larger supercharger.
Tiger_kpt said:
Hi after-shock,
I have a Harrop intercooled H112 Monaro VXR. I am in the same thinking as you, I don't see why someone would go down the supercharged (forced induction) route without going intercooled.
Technically, it isn't right - I think because these engines are so "bullet proof"... and the engine maps provided to suit are running so rich - you can just about get away with a non intercooled supercharged application. Otherwise, I think there would have been quite a few short term issues along the line. That doesn't say that there won't be any long term issues though.
In your case though, I would definitely go down the intercooled route. It is the only way to be sure and not get caught out. If it was me though, I would also "shop around". I wouldn't settle for the figures that you have been quoted for the Harrop setup. It is a great product, but I wouldn't pay that premium for one.
Has anyone actually got any pictures of the Harrop under-charger heat exchanger? It can't be that "special" and "custom". I would have thought that an equivalent can be fabricated quite easily. And like you said, all of the other parts in the kit can be replaced or found at a good price quite easily.
Failing that, Rapid GB and the charger unit exchange basis deal would be my next port of call for sure.
Believe me ive tried to get a pic of the heat exchange unit, harrop wont release one and no one has a pic of one from a kit (pesrsonally think their not allowed to show them) as my mates can easily make one up if they have a pic to start with. Not keen on the car having to be taken to bits to start at making one.I have a Harrop intercooled H112 Monaro VXR. I am in the same thinking as you, I don't see why someone would go down the supercharged (forced induction) route without going intercooled.
Technically, it isn't right - I think because these engines are so "bullet proof"... and the engine maps provided to suit are running so rich - you can just about get away with a non intercooled supercharged application. Otherwise, I think there would have been quite a few short term issues along the line. That doesn't say that there won't be any long term issues though.
In your case though, I would definitely go down the intercooled route. It is the only way to be sure and not get caught out. If it was me though, I would also "shop around". I wouldn't settle for the figures that you have been quoted for the Harrop setup. It is a great product, but I wouldn't pay that premium for one.
Has anyone actually got any pictures of the Harrop under-charger heat exchanger? It can't be that "special" and "custom". I would have thought that an equivalent can be fabricated quite easily. And like you said, all of the other parts in the kit can be replaced or found at a good price quite easily.
Failing that, Rapid GB and the charger unit exchange basis deal would be my next port of call for sure.
Edited by Tiger_kpt on Wednesday 5th August 08:24
I appreciate what your saying that it needs intercooling and I know that but £2.5k is a stupid amount of money for what parts are involved, as I say dont mind spending it where I see the value in it but harrop are clearly charging a fortune for the bits as a separate part as they dont like supplying them separately.
wormus said:
Well_Fans said:
he's got the new tvs2300 from magnacharger and seems quite excited about it from his thread on the subject
Yes I am, especially as I know the output, just waiting for the graphs. Car being MOTd today then I should get it back.I could be wrong but I don't think Harrop have released their TVS yet. The Maggie has been around for a while and it's a brilliant piece of kit. Intake temps on mine are just 2-3 degrees above ambient on 14psi. The 2300 is for built engines like mine, on a standard LS2 or similar you're probably better off with a 1900.
Given the bad news about the intercooler I guess you need to decide a power level you want and then plan towards it.
Would the 2300 running a lower boost not be more efficient than a 1900 running a higher boost on a standard ls2?
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