mid engine/4wd, which set up ?
Discussion
right guys, im hatching a plan for a 4wd mid engined transverse layout car.
my question is what drivetrain to use?
as said it needs to be a transverse engine and box, mid mounted, 4 cylinder 4 wheel drive. what choices do i have for engine and drivetrain ?
preferably something standardish to keep cost down.
ive never dabbled with 4wd before, so please explain how it works exactly ! this may sound like i havent a clue, but ive just never worked/or used it before.
what is a center diff/transfer box for? and will my set up need it?
there are plenty of front engined 4wd cars, but im struggling to think of any mid engined/transverse 4wd.
mark
my question is what drivetrain to use?
as said it needs to be a transverse engine and box, mid mounted, 4 cylinder 4 wheel drive. what choices do i have for engine and drivetrain ?
preferably something standardish to keep cost down.
ive never dabbled with 4wd before, so please explain how it works exactly ! this may sound like i havent a clue, but ive just never worked/or used it before.
what is a center diff/transfer box for? and will my set up need it?
there are plenty of front engined 4wd cars, but im struggling to think of any mid engined/transverse 4wd.
mark
torsen quattros have the engines in-line, but haldex quattros (4 motions) as found in the TT/S3 runs a transverse. The mk1 cars run the 1.8T which is very tunable.
Wasnt the little 4WD mini on PH last week running transverse and AWD?
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/default.asp?stor...
Wasnt the little 4WD mini on PH last week running transverse and AWD?
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/default.asp?stor...
All I will say is good luck finding a suitable donor. As you say, there aren't really any mid engined 4wd set ups. At least not the sort to use as donors anyway, as they are all top end supercars. It might be possible to adapt something, but when I was looking a while back, I gave up in the end.
HighlandBling said:
torsen quattros have the engines in-line, but haldex quattros (4 motions) as found in the TT/S3 runs a transverse. The mk1 cars run the 1.8T which is very tunable.
Wasnt the little 4WD mini on PH last week running transverse and AWD?
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/default.asp?stor...
yes the mini is, but its not mid engined.Wasnt the little 4WD mini on PH last week running transverse and AWD?
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/default.asp?stor...
Mid engine 4wd. 205 t16, Metro 6r4 , Veyron. ( dont know if there transverse )
I have a mid engined polo running a 500 bhp 1.8t engine which I thought about making 4wd but its going up for sale soon as I have some new plans
I have a mid engined polo running a 500 bhp 1.8t engine which I thought about making 4wd but its going up for sale soon as I have some new plans
Edited by marT350T on Wednesday 5th August 19:27
Edited by marT350T on Wednesday 5th August 19:29
i think the probelm with mid mounted east wwest mounted engines is the gearbox/transfercase. you cant just spin the engine around or you end up with the rear diff (was the front) spinning the wrong way, dont you???
How about a trusty cossy mid mounted??? you can run the gearbox the other way around and have the originally front prop drivng the rear wheels and the originally rear drive shaft driving the front pair. Also there will a load of engines that you could bolt upto the gearbox giving you a better choice.
Didn't Auafie have a mid mounted racer that raced in the British GT championship a (good) few years ago??
Chris.
How about a trusty cossy mid mounted??? you can run the gearbox the other way around and have the originally front prop drivng the rear wheels and the originally rear drive shaft driving the front pair. Also there will a load of engines that you could bolt upto the gearbox giving you a better choice.
Didn't Auafie have a mid mounted racer that raced in the British GT championship a (good) few years ago??
Chris.
stifler said:
Marf said:
Weren't some of the ice racing cars featured on Top Gear a couple of weeks ago mid mounted transverse 4wd?
Yes but they are race spec cars with race spec price tags.Edited by Marf on Thursday 6th August 08:39
marT350T said:
Mid engine 4wd. 205 t16, Metro 6r4 , Veyron. ( dont know if there transverse )
I have a mid engined polo running a 500 bhp 1.8t engine which I thought about making 4wd but its going up for sale soon as I have some new plans
The 205 is transverse the metro and the veyron are inlineI have a mid engined polo running a 500 bhp 1.8t engine which I thought about making 4wd but its going up for sale soon as I have some new plans
Edited by marT350T on Wednesday 5th August 19:27
Edited by marT350T on Wednesday 5th August 19:29
Maybe dp1 can provide some inspiration? Go digging about on the site, it won't let me link directly to the relevant bits
The prototype he built was a mid engined, transverse bike engine with chain drive to front and rear diffs; tho he's now gone for a longitudinal V8 but keeping the chain drive.
Most of the transverse 4WD I can think of off the top of my head are front engined with the engine ahead of the front axle. You could then do the classic kit car approach of using that powerpack to drive the rear axle, but how do you get the drive from the rear of the car, through the engine to the front. Possible but not going to be pretty.
One idea I've seen floating around for ages was mounting a transverse, front wheel drive powerpack in the middle of a car mounted longitudinally. You then have drive outputs pointing front and rear which could connect to separate front and rear axles. Now, use a longitudinal, front wheel drive powerpack (Audi/VW) and do the same, that gives you your transverse mid mounted engine (tho it might be a bit wide!). The big problem is gear ratios, as the addition of the extra front and rear diffs introduces another gear reduction; unless you can fiddle with the ratios of all 3 diffs or find a 1:1 right angle drive that would work
Sounds like an interesting project
The prototype he built was a mid engined, transverse bike engine with chain drive to front and rear diffs; tho he's now gone for a longitudinal V8 but keeping the chain drive.
Most of the transverse 4WD I can think of off the top of my head are front engined with the engine ahead of the front axle. You could then do the classic kit car approach of using that powerpack to drive the rear axle, but how do you get the drive from the rear of the car, through the engine to the front. Possible but not going to be pretty.
One idea I've seen floating around for ages was mounting a transverse, front wheel drive powerpack in the middle of a car mounted longitudinally. You then have drive outputs pointing front and rear which could connect to separate front and rear axles. Now, use a longitudinal, front wheel drive powerpack (Audi/VW) and do the same, that gives you your transverse mid mounted engine (tho it might be a bit wide!). The big problem is gear ratios, as the addition of the extra front and rear diffs introduces another gear reduction; unless you can fiddle with the ratios of all 3 diffs or find a 1:1 right angle drive that would work
Sounds like an interesting project
beejay said:
One idea I've seen floating around for ages was mounting a transverse, front wheel drive powerpack in the middle of a car mounted longitudinally. You then have drive outputs pointing front and rear which could connect to separate front and rear axles. Now, use a longitudinal, front wheel drive powerpack (Audi/VW) and do the same, that gives you your transverse mid mounted engine (tho it might be a bit wide!). The big problem is gear ratios, as the addition of the extra front and rear diffs introduces another gear reduction; unless you can fiddle with the ratios of all 3 diffs or find a 1:1 right angle drive that would work
Sounds like an interesting project
Sounds like a fun project, however another limiting factor will be the strength of the gearbox and diff taken from the FWD car. Those components were built to handle the grip of a FWD shopping trolley that will spin up if launched too hard, not driving 4 wheels that will grip solidly when launched .... Having said that, we run a race VAG 20v T with over 500bhp through sticky tyres and the setup is super strong for a standard car. Very impressive.Sounds like an interesting project
I've been floating this idea around in my head recently (I have a Toyota MK3 MR-2 and was just thinking it would make for an awesome 4wd rally car...) but the main problem that I foresee is the gearbox. The trouble is that on a conventional (i.e front engined) transverse 4wd gearbox the output shaft from the gearbox for the rear wheels is heading out towards the back of the car.
In a mid-4 car this would be problematic as you want the shaft to head towards the front of the car.
What I was thinking would be to use a gearbox out of a Honda, as their FF setup is different.
Assuming that Honda's 4wd gearbox uses the same layout, in a mid4 application it would look like this:
As Honda's engines rotate in the opposite direction to normal engines, if you attach a normally rotating engine to the gearbox, you would have the correct direction of travel (rather than a car that travels backwards). Unfortunately I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that differentials don't like being rotated in the wrong direction so what I'm saying may not be possible. Also, if it was this easy (well theoretically) surely someone would have done it by now...
Anyway I am by no means an expert, so I may be barking up completely the wrong tree. Just hope this helps. Oh nd out of curiosity what car were you planning on putting this in, or is this going to be a custom jobby?
In a mid-4 car this would be problematic as you want the shaft to head towards the front of the car.
What I was thinking would be to use a gearbox out of a Honda, as their FF setup is different.
Assuming that Honda's 4wd gearbox uses the same layout, in a mid4 application it would look like this:
As Honda's engines rotate in the opposite direction to normal engines, if you attach a normally rotating engine to the gearbox, you would have the correct direction of travel (rather than a car that travels backwards). Unfortunately I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that differentials don't like being rotated in the wrong direction so what I'm saying may not be possible. Also, if it was this easy (well theoretically) surely someone would have done it by now...
Anyway I am by no means an expert, so I may be barking up completely the wrong tree. Just hope this helps. Oh nd out of curiosity what car were you planning on putting this in, or is this going to be a custom jobby?
Fat_Panda said:
I've been floating this idea around in my head recently (I have a Toyota MK3 MR-2 and was just thinking it would make for an awesome 4wd rally car...) but the main problem that I foresee is the gearbox. The trouble is that on a conventional (i.e front engined) transverse 4wd gearbox the output shaft from the gearbox for the rear wheels is heading out towards the back of the car.
In a mid-4 car this would be problematic as you want the shaft to head towards the front of the car.
What I was thinking would be to use a gearbox out of a Honda, as their FF setup is different.
Assuming that Honda's 4wd gearbox uses the same layout, in a mid4 application it would look like this:
As Honda's engines rotate in the opposite direction to normal engines, if you attach a normally rotating engine to the gearbox, you would have the correct direction of travel (rather than a car that travels backwards). Unfortunately I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that differentials don't like being rotated in the wrong direction so what I'm saying may not be possible. Also, if it was this easy (well theoretically) surely someone would have done it by now...
Anyway I am by no means an expert, so I may be barking up completely the wrong tree. Just hope this helps. Oh nd out of curiosity what car were you planning on putting this in, or is this going to be a custom jobby?
A Mini In a mid-4 car this would be problematic as you want the shaft to head towards the front of the car.
What I was thinking would be to use a gearbox out of a Honda, as their FF setup is different.
Assuming that Honda's 4wd gearbox uses the same layout, in a mid4 application it would look like this:
As Honda's engines rotate in the opposite direction to normal engines, if you attach a normally rotating engine to the gearbox, you would have the correct direction of travel (rather than a car that travels backwards). Unfortunately I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that differentials don't like being rotated in the wrong direction so what I'm saying may not be possible. Also, if it was this easy (well theoretically) surely someone would have done it by now...
Anyway I am by no means an expert, so I may be barking up completely the wrong tree. Just hope this helps. Oh nd out of curiosity what car were you planning on putting this in, or is this going to be a custom jobby?
, using the z cars set up but with 4wd. imaging a 4wd mid engined mini with big bhp ? ok so its not the most aerodynamic of cars, but it would handle and grip.Bit of an oddball one as no one really makes one off the shelf. However there is something which might be possible to make to fit.
Toyota Lucida/Emina/Previa's are a midmounted engine, londitudinal layout, many of the imports are 4wd (all diesel's though) independent rear suspension too on the 4wd drives anyway, being toyota I guarantee there will be endless changeability with parts from other models. Plus they also did a 2.4 petrol supercharged version.
Toyota Lucida/Emina/Previa's are a midmounted engine, londitudinal layout, many of the imports are 4wd (all diesel's though) independent rear suspension too on the 4wd drives anyway, being toyota I guarantee there will be endless changeability with parts from other models. Plus they also did a 2.4 petrol supercharged version.
Fat_Panda said:
As Honda's engines rotate in the opposite direction to normal engines, if you attach a normally rotating engine to the gearbox, you would have the correct direction of travel (rather than a car that travels backwards). Unfortunately I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that differentials don't like being rotated in the wrong direction so what I'm saying may not be possible. Also, if it was this easy (well theoretically) surely someone would have done it by now...
Only the B series and earlier were backwards (I think), and gearboxes would not like going backwards due to how the gear teeth are cut really.Easiest way is to find a system that has the front and rear differentials as separate units. You can often rotate the actual differential within the differential housing (is do-able on the Nissan rear diff used on the Impreza line for instance)
Edited by rypt on Saturday 22 August 20:29
rypt said:
Easiest way is to find a system that has the front and rear differentials as separate units. You can often rotate the actual differential within the differential housing (is do-able on the Nissan rear diff used on the Impreza line for instance)
Or just turn the diff upside down? On rear engined range rover buggies, they put the engine in the back and then turn both axles upside down.Edited by rypt on Saturday 22 August 20:29
Fat_Panda said:
As Honda's engines rotate in the opposite direction to normal engines, if you attach a normally rotating engine to the gearbox, you would have the correct direction of travel
Not quite! The older Honda engines that rotated anti-clockwise were fitted the opposite way around in the car, i.e. cam belt on nearside, gearbox on offside. The gearbox didn't do any extra reversing.eliot said:
rypt said:
Easiest way is to find a system that has the front and rear differentials as separate units. You can often rotate the actual differential within the differential housing (is do-able on the Nissan rear diff used on the Impreza line for instance)
Or just turn the diff upside down? On rear engined range rover buggies, they put the engine in the back and then turn both axles upside down.Edited by rypt on Saturday 22 August 20:29
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