Trackday Car Dilemma Time
Discussion
Well after a great trackday at Snetterton on Tuesday i'm more than likely going to do a few more.
Now my E36 BMW (2.0 Coupe) did admirably considering it's more standard than captain standard but obviously a few issues cropped up.
1) Lack of Power. It did well for an early non-vanos 2.0 but more poke is necessary
2) The standard brakes were past their prime within about 3 laps.
3) The handling was softer than spongebob and very understeery.
The car is pretty sound and quite pretty in a standard kinda way.
Now the options are to keep the E36, fit bigger brakes, larger wheels (to fit the brakes in) but need to be light as the standard ones (15") I can lift with one finger, LSD, Polybushes, Cheap coilover set and transplant a 325/328 engine with mild tweaks.
or Sell the BM and get something quicker out of the box.
The only proviso is that the car won't be stripped as a true trackday car so needs to keep its basic creature comforts for day to day running and also needs reasonable boot space.i.e. The Coupe's rear seats drop down which makes it passable.
If I change I don't want to spend more than 3-4k.
I've considered another 850 T5 or an E36 M3 (early) or perhaps a Honda Accord Type R.
So any thoughts chaps and chapesses?
Cheers,
Nick
Now my E36 BMW (2.0 Coupe) did admirably considering it's more standard than captain standard but obviously a few issues cropped up.
1) Lack of Power. It did well for an early non-vanos 2.0 but more poke is necessary
2) The standard brakes were past their prime within about 3 laps.
3) The handling was softer than spongebob and very understeery.
The car is pretty sound and quite pretty in a standard kinda way.
Now the options are to keep the E36, fit bigger brakes, larger wheels (to fit the brakes in) but need to be light as the standard ones (15") I can lift with one finger, LSD, Polybushes, Cheap coilover set and transplant a 325/328 engine with mild tweaks.
or Sell the BM and get something quicker out of the box.
The only proviso is that the car won't be stripped as a true trackday car so needs to keep its basic creature comforts for day to day running and also needs reasonable boot space.i.e. The Coupe's rear seats drop down which makes it passable.
If I change I don't want to spend more than 3-4k.
I've considered another 850 T5 or an E36 M3 (early) or perhaps a Honda Accord Type R.
So any thoughts chaps and chapesses?
Cheers,
Nick
I'm by no means an expert, in fact I've only done one trackday before. (at Snetterton actually)
My car was an E36 M3 Evo, was used as my daily driver but performed very well for a beginner on track.
The mods I'd done didn't really affect it negatively as a road car, but certainly helped it on track.
The suspension was standard springs, but Bilstein dampers to replace the knackered standard ones. It also had uprated Eibach anti-roll bars.
Brake wise, I had decent fluid, braided hoses and Pagid RS29 pads. These stood up extremely well, and I never felt that I had 'no brakes'.
If you wanted an everyday car which you could enjoy more on track, an e36 M3 is a reasonable choice. There's also plenty of weight to be lost if you wanted to make it more extreme at a later date.
And here's a little pic of it coming through the esses.
My car was an E36 M3 Evo, was used as my daily driver but performed very well for a beginner on track.
The mods I'd done didn't really affect it negatively as a road car, but certainly helped it on track.
The suspension was standard springs, but Bilstein dampers to replace the knackered standard ones. It also had uprated Eibach anti-roll bars.
Brake wise, I had decent fluid, braided hoses and Pagid RS29 pads. These stood up extremely well, and I never felt that I had 'no brakes'.
If you wanted an everyday car which you could enjoy more on track, an e36 M3 is a reasonable choice. There's also plenty of weight to be lost if you wanted to make it more extreme at a later date.
And here's a little pic of it coming through the esses.
Well done for getting out onto the track.
Brakes, Suspension, Tyres, Power.
That is the order that you need to tackle your build IMO
When you choose to lose weight from the car is up to you. That's when the car becomes a circuit only toy that family and friends will no longer want to ride in to the shops with you, but you will love to drive to and on the circuit.
Never underestimate the value and lap time that you can save with driver training. Grab an instructor the second you arrive at a track day, and get him to show you the way around. Do what he says all morning, and then grab him again after the lunch break to check you are still driving correctly and for him to show you the "real" line to drive .... Instructors safe track day lines are never the fastest racer lines
Brakes, Suspension, Tyres, Power.
That is the order that you need to tackle your build IMO
When you choose to lose weight from the car is up to you. That's when the car becomes a circuit only toy that family and friends will no longer want to ride in to the shops with you, but you will love to drive to and on the circuit.
Never underestimate the value and lap time that you can save with driver training. Grab an instructor the second you arrive at a track day, and get him to show you the way around. Do what he says all morning, and then grab him again after the lunch break to check you are still driving correctly and for him to show you the "real" line to drive .... Instructors safe track day lines are never the fastest racer lines
Cheers guys,
In no specific order
, I think cause i'm used to Bike trackdays on my TL and funnily enought the last trackday i'd done was Snetterton on the bike, you miss pushing 160+mph down the back straight.
I think the E36 M3 is a cracking car for an every day car which can also do well on the track. I have my TVR (which I don't want to regularly 'track') as my POJ so really don't want a dedicated trackday car too.
A bit of a wildcard down the 'classic' route is an old E28 M535i. Only that a good few years ago I made the dumb mistake of selling my E28 M5 and loved that thing. Prices for the 'real thing' are ridiculous now and an M535i I drove with the dog-leg manual seemed to go rather well. Not that heavy either.
Regarding training..hmmm well i've gotta be honest. you're probably right!! If enthusiasm and commitment on the edge would give the best lap times then I recon i'd be up there with the quickest.
However, when I calmed down a bit and made more effort in a smooth line rather than being on (and sometimes beyond) the edge on every corner, I think I was quicker.
Also, i'd love to know the quickest line through the 'Esses' as mine was quite ragged. (Locking a wheel into the 2nd corner and running the kerbs on entry and exit'
Think I may take a trip round with the experts next time round.
In no specific order
, I think cause i'm used to Bike trackdays on my TL and funnily enought the last trackday i'd done was Snetterton on the bike, you miss pushing 160+mph down the back straight.I think the E36 M3 is a cracking car for an every day car which can also do well on the track. I have my TVR (which I don't want to regularly 'track') as my POJ so really don't want a dedicated trackday car too.
A bit of a wildcard down the 'classic' route is an old E28 M535i. Only that a good few years ago I made the dumb mistake of selling my E28 M5 and loved that thing. Prices for the 'real thing' are ridiculous now and an M535i I drove with the dog-leg manual seemed to go rather well. Not that heavy either.
Regarding training..hmmm well i've gotta be honest. you're probably right!! If enthusiasm and commitment on the edge would give the best lap times then I recon i'd be up there with the quickest.
However, when I calmed down a bit and made more effort in a smooth line rather than being on (and sometimes beyond) the edge on every corner, I think I was quicker.
Also, i'd love to know the quickest line through the 'Esses' as mine was quite ragged. (Locking a wheel into the 2nd corner and running the kerbs on entry and exit'
Think I may take a trip round with the experts next time round.
I've owned a Honda Accord Type R and currently have a stripped 328 track car and a M3 Evo as a road car - so I can answer from experience regarding your choices.
If you're going to keep the car relatively standard for trackdays go for the M3 if running costs aren't an issue. Bear in mind that you'll spend a long time finding a good one and even then it will probably need money spending on it. Otherwise the ATR makes a great 'hybrid' (road and track) out of the box and can be had from an enthusiast for much less than the combined cost of the M3 plus the bits that will need sorting.
A standard 328 on track is very soft and will lose out in a big way to the M3 and ATR, although it's still fun. Really cheap to run and if you decide turn it into a proper track car later down the line, they can easily keep with well driven E46 M3s in standard guise.
As for the 850, I can't see that being much fun on track even if it were stripped.
If you're going to keep the car relatively standard for trackdays go for the M3 if running costs aren't an issue. Bear in mind that you'll spend a long time finding a good one and even then it will probably need money spending on it. Otherwise the ATR makes a great 'hybrid' (road and track) out of the box and can be had from an enthusiast for much less than the combined cost of the M3 plus the bits that will need sorting.
A standard 328 on track is very soft and will lose out in a big way to the M3 and ATR, although it's still fun. Really cheap to run and if you decide turn it into a proper track car later down the line, they can easily keep with well driven E46 M3s in standard guise.
As for the 850, I can't see that being much fun on track even if it were stripped.
Paul_M3 said:
And here's a little pic of it coming through the esses.
Fire99 said:
Also, i'd love to know the quickest line through the 'Esses' as mine was quite ragged.
Actually that's not the Esses it's Russell! 
Fire99 said:
Regarding training..hmmm well i've gotta be honest. you're probably right!! If enthusiasm and commitment on the edge would give the best lap times then I recon i'd be up there with the quickest.
However, when I calmed down a bit and made more effort in a smooth line rather than being on (and sometimes beyond) the edge on every corner, I think I was quicker.
Chill out, relax and be smooth, it's always quicker! However, when I calmed down a bit and made more effort in a smooth line rather than being on (and sometimes beyond) the edge on every corner, I think I was quicker.
Fire99 said:
Think I may take a trip round with the experts next time round.
Good idea! Paul_M3 said:
You're absolutely right. I knew I should have checked a circuit map before that post!
(I still think they're named wrong, Russell is more like an S, and The Esses are two corners with a straight between them)
The Esses is one of the hardest complexes to get right and take quickly. There are two ways to take it, one involves a text-book late turn into the left-hander and getting power on again before braking again for the right-hander. This is the easiest and safest way for a novice. Some cars (generally with high-grip/dpownforce) can carry huge speed into the left-hander on a much shallower (straighter) line, trail-braking right through to (and beyond) the turn-point of the right-hander. Don't try it yourself though, get instruction!! (I still think they're named wrong, Russell is more like an S, and The Esses are two corners with a straight between them)
Edited by timarnold on Friday 7th August 20:54
Edited by timarnold on Friday 7th August 23:59
timarnold said:
Paul_M3 said:
You're absolutely right. I knew I should have checked a circuit map before that post!
(I still think they're named wrong, Russell is more like an S, and The Esses are two corners with a straight between them)
The Esses is one of the hardest complexes to get right and take quickly. There are two ways to take it, one involves a text-book late turn into the left-hander and getting power on again before braking again for the right-hander. This is the easiest and safest way for a novice. Some cars (generally with high-grip/dpownforce) can carry huge speed into the left-hander on a much shallower (straighter) line, trail-braking right through to (and beyond) the point of the right-hander. Don't try it yourself though, get instruction!! (I still think they're named wrong, Russell is more like an S, and The Esses are two corners with a straight between them)
Yeah I know the pic wasn't at the 'Esses' but it's the 'Esses' which I found most fun and challenging. Lots of trailing brake into the bend and with the 'softy softy' 320 suspension and milk bottle top brakes working overtime.
The handling issues of the car were shown up most at 'Sear' where you were going fast into the bend but it was hard to get the front in and hold its line without understeering for England on the Exit.
(To be honest, in the first couple of trips out, I deliberately overcooked the exit just to see how far off line the front would drift. The answer being.... How wide do you want to go? )
Interesting about the M3 and Accord Type R. I had both a Civic and Accord (both Type-R's) new from work a few years ago and found them both good though the Accord seemed a slightly odd mix of a big car but screaming revs. Seats on both were A1
I think the M3 ultimately would suit me better as i'm a bit of a BM man at heart (well up to the E46 anyway). But as with anything, it's whether there is a nice one about when the time comes.
Regarding the 850. Well They have a great engine (I had an Estate T5 and was surprised by its grunt) and there was a saloon (red one) going round very quickly on Tuesday. And they were in the Touring car series back in the early 90's so may be a bit of a dark horse.
The handling issues of the car were shown up most at 'Sear' where you were going fast into the bend but it was hard to get the front in and hold its line without understeering for England on the Exit.
(To be honest, in the first couple of trips out, I deliberately overcooked the exit just to see how far off line the front would drift. The answer being.... How wide do you want to go?
)Interesting about the M3 and Accord Type R. I had both a Civic and Accord (both Type-R's) new from work a few years ago and found them both good though the Accord seemed a slightly odd mix of a big car but screaming revs. Seats on both were A1
I think the M3 ultimately would suit me better as i'm a bit of a BM man at heart (well up to the E46 anyway). But as with anything, it's whether there is a nice one about when the time comes.
Regarding the 850. Well They have a great engine (I had an Estate T5 and was surprised by its grunt) and there was a saloon (red one) going round very quickly on Tuesday. And they were in the Touring car series back in the early 90's so may be a bit of a dark horse.
Fire99 said:
Regarding the 850. Well They have a great engine (I had an Estate T5 and was surprised by its grunt) and there was a saloon (red one) going round very quickly on Tuesday. And they were in the Touring car series back in the early 90's so may be a bit of a dark horse.
I instructed someone in an 850 T5 at Oulton Park a few weeks ago. He bought it cheap and brought it to the track as it was... it was horrible! It was way too soft for the track and wallowed around like block of flats built on a jelly. It had a fair bit of grunt but with no LSD it span its inside front up at every corner with the merest thought about throttle application. I reckoned it could still make a reasonably good track car with some money spent on it. My advice to the owner was strip everything out of it that's not needed, put some competition seats, harness and a cage in it, seriously stiffen it up and get some sticky tyres on it (and obviously uprate the brakes too).Re the ones that were in BTCC, bear in mind BTCC cars are only based on the standard car's shell. They have a full welded in cage that is more than just a cage, it is effectively a space-frame, the structure goes beyond the interior to incorporate the supensionn mounting points, making a very stiff chassis; then the suspension is way beyond standard and the cars are substantially lighter than their production counterparts. You can have similar work done to a road car, but at great expense!
Edited by timarnold on Saturday 8th August 19:33
Well to be honest my T5 Estate was not the definition of precision when it came to handling.
I've always had a soft spot for the T5R's and the 2.3 5-pot is a peach IMO but I concede it probably would end up a rubbish road car once enough had been done to make it a good track car.
Another 'wild card' entry, what about the Skoda Octavia VRS? Or is that a bit of a luxo-barge out of the box? I'm only thinking Forced Induction cars since once the handling/stopping is up to scratch it's usually fairly easy to increase power later.
I've always had a soft spot for the T5R's and the 2.3 5-pot is a peach IMO but I concede it probably would end up a rubbish road car once enough had been done to make it a good track car.
Another 'wild card' entry, what about the Skoda Octavia VRS? Or is that a bit of a luxo-barge out of the box? I'm only thinking Forced Induction cars since once the handling/stopping is up to scratch it's usually fairly easy to increase power later.
Haven't had an Octavia on the track but I did do a day with a customer in his wife's Fabia VRS (while his Corvette was in the garage!) and that was surprisingly good. I rember catching and passing an MX5 race car with it.
The Octavia is really a VW Bora; I had a Bora TDi Sport (150PS) on the road for a while, that was good and I considered tracking that, I often thought about how good that could be as a proper track car with the right suspesion set up and the TDi motor chipped. There was a Golf in Britcar a couple of years back with basically the same engine in it, but running (only 220 bhp, but...) 420 ft/lbs... Skoda did a TDi version of the Octavia didn't they? That would shock a few people when they blown away by a Skoda TDi!
The Octavia is really a VW Bora; I had a Bora TDi Sport (150PS) on the road for a while, that was good and I considered tracking that, I often thought about how good that could be as a proper track car with the right suspesion set up and the TDi motor chipped. There was a Golf in Britcar a couple of years back with basically the same engine in it, but running (only 220 bhp, but...) 420 ft/lbs... Skoda did a TDi version of the Octavia didn't they? That would shock a few people when they blown away by a Skoda TDi!
timarnold said:
Haven't had an Octavia on the track but I did do a day with a customer in his wife's Fabia VRS (while his Corvette was in the garage!) and that was surprisingly good. I rember catching and passing an MX5 race car with it.
The Octavia is really a VW Bora; I had a Bora TDi Sport (150PS) on the road for a while, that was good and I considered tracking that, I often thought about how good that could be as a proper track car with the right suspesion set up and the TDi motor chipped. There was a Golf in Britcar a couple of years back with basically the same engine in it, but running (only 220 bhp, but...) 420 ft/lbs... Skoda did a TDi version of the Octavia didn't they? That would shock a few people when they blown away by a Skoda TDi!
Crikey Tim.. A Diesel??? The Octavia is really a VW Bora; I had a Bora TDi Sport (150PS) on the road for a while, that was good and I considered tracking that, I often thought about how good that could be as a proper track car with the right suspesion set up and the TDi motor chipped. There was a Golf in Britcar a couple of years back with basically the same engine in it, but running (only 220 bhp, but...) 420 ft/lbs... Skoda did a TDi version of the Octavia didn't they? That would shock a few people when they blown away by a Skoda TDi!
. I have to admit i'm from the 1900's school of racing where Diesel is a dirty word. Literally. But with the likes of LeMans and Touring Cars for that matter I must concede there are some seriously fast ones out there and i'm sure their power delivery must give them some serious poke firing out of corners.And yeah can you imagine the post trackday discussions in the pub when people are speaking of being outgunned by a Skoda Diesel?? I ran one from work for a couple of trips to Germany and it was quite brisk. However the standard TDi suspension was very road-comfort spec.
I would say suspension first. I have done it on 3 different cars (M3 included) and the difference has been very significant. Adjustable dampers with reasonably hardish springs is the way to go. No point saying 320 is soft and M3 is not, as both are not quite suitably stiff for track as standard.
My M3 is currently awaiting an engine transplant as the motor unexpectedly expired at Silverstone several weeks ago. I have booked up loads of T/D's but with the M3 laid up, had no car to use and so a couple of weeks ago I bought a 325i from ebay: that was on the Wednesday and I was using it on track at Goodwood on the Friday! It was REALLY good with the only modification that I had time to carry out being to install a front HR anti roll bar. I used the same poor quality Hankook Ventus track day tyres ( they say track day, that's a laugh ) that I have been using on the M3 in poor weather and the car was only 6 seconds a lap slower than the M3!, and that has coil overs, AP's, more power + loads of other stuff.
I am going up to Snet on Wednesday and hope to have some better brakes installed by then but it was definitely worth getting the car
I would say brakes; suspension; tyres then motor, in that order
) that I have been using on the M3 in poor weather and the car was only 6 seconds a lap slower than the M3!, and that has coil overs, AP's, more power + loads of other stuff.I am going up to Snet on Wednesday and hope to have some better brakes installed by then but it was definitely worth getting the car
I would say brakes; suspension; tyres then motor, in that order
Quick! Buy this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-328i-E36-TRACK-CAR-ROAD-...
A rack prepped 328 for £2000 on ebay....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-328i-E36-TRACK-CAR-ROAD-...
A rack prepped 328 for £2000 on ebay....
minerva said:
Quick! Buy this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-328i-E36-TRACK-CAR-ROAD-...
A rack prepped 328 for £2000 on ebay....
It's at 2800 quid now and still not fetched it's reserve price. Not such a bargain after all.http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-328i-E36-TRACK-CAR-ROAD-...
A rack prepped 328 for £2000 on ebay....
Anyway, it's too 'Track' for me. I still want day to day creature comforts (within reason) too.
Fire99 said:
minerva said:
Quick! Buy this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-328i-E36-TRACK-CAR-ROAD-...
A rack prepped 328 for £2000 on ebay....
It's at 2800 quid now and still not fetched it's reserve price. Not such a bargain after all.http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-328i-E36-TRACK-CAR-ROAD-...
A rack prepped 328 for £2000 on ebay....
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