Idiots guide to ignition
Discussion
Does anyone have a complete idots guide with pictures to setting up a distributor from scratch for complete numpties like me as I just can not get mine right
I need to know cylinders, dissy location, how to tell if on compression stroke
as mine will only run like a dog and then when you try and move dissy it comes up against an obstacle.
My timing gun says running at 50 degrees to get it smoother, so that surely can't be right either
Cheers a disgruntled GSX
I need to know cylinders, dissy location, how to tell if on compression stroke
as mine will only run like a dog and then when you try and move dissy it comes up against an obstacle.
My timing gun says running at 50 degrees to get it smoother, so that surely can't be right either
Cheers a disgruntled GSX
If its coming up against a stop then rotate the distributor in the direction it can move 45 degrees (thats the distance between 2 of the ignition lead connectors on the dizzy cap).
Next move all the ignition leads around the cap one position in the opposite rotation to the direction you just rotated the dizzy. So for example if the plug lead for cylinder number one is at 3 oclock when you start, after you've rotated the dizzy and moved the leads then plug lead 1 will still be at 3 oclock.
This will at least now give you the possibility to move the dizzy through the range you need.
The crank pulley timing marks are known for being miles out apparently, which could explain your wild timing values.
Next move all the ignition leads around the cap one position in the opposite rotation to the direction you just rotated the dizzy. So for example if the plug lead for cylinder number one is at 3 oclock when you start, after you've rotated the dizzy and moved the leads then plug lead 1 will still be at 3 oclock.
This will at least now give you the possibility to move the dizzy through the range you need.
The crank pulley timing marks are known for being miles out apparently, which could explain your wild timing values.
Handily, the oil filler is usually just above no. 1 cylinder so in theory if you can reach in and find both rocker arms have a slight amount of play in them then no. 1 piston is at TDC on compression stroke (ie both valves are fully closed and the cam has 'let go' of them).
Alas the last time I tried this it didn't work, probably down to the hydraulic lifters...
Otherwise, whip off the lefthand rocker cover and rotate the crank with a socket while watching no. 1's valves for a full cycle. Once the inlet valve has opened and closed, when the TDC mark is on the pointer you should be somewhere near.
Alas the last time I tried this it didn't work, probably down to the hydraulic lifters...
Otherwise, whip off the lefthand rocker cover and rotate the crank with a socket while watching no. 1's valves for a full cycle. Once the inlet valve has opened and closed, when the TDC mark is on the pointer you should be somewhere near.
Given that the engine is apparently running with the timing massively 'wrong' I would want to confirm your timing marks before going any further. You need to find #1 TDC and check the timing marks are accurate. You can find TDC quite easily by replacing the #1 spark plug with a dead stop. An old spark plug with the insides bashed out and a small piece of stud screwed in to the end makes a perfect dead stop. Use the deadstop to find two positions either side of TDC, TDC is half way between them.
Using basically the same approach Wedg1e described, I'd suggest one small change and that's to turn engine over until you see the rockers for #1 crossing (one closing, one opening) - then you know #1 cylinder is around TDC on the exhaust stroke. Turn the crank through another full revolution and you have #1 TDC on the compression stroke. Note where the rotor arm is pointing and designate the corresponding HT tower as #1 cylinder. #1 is the cylinder nearest the dizzy, of course. 3, 5, 7 are the other cylinders on the same bank. 2, 4, 6, 8 are the corresponding cylinders on the far bank. The firing order is 18436572 so work around the dizzy cap starting at #1 and connect each HT tower to the appropriate plug.
At this point the ignition timing is still pretty random. Crank the engine over with a strobe on #1 lead and try to spot the timing mark. It may be miles out - move the dizzy around to adjust the timing until the strobe catches the timing mark, you may need to move as much as 20 deg either way to find it. Fine tune the dizzy position to give you about 5 deg of advance. (Once it's running OK you'll want to advance this to about 8 degrees.)
Check that you have a good strong spark on at least a couple of plugs.
This is a good time to take all the plugs out (you labelled #1 lead before disconnecting it, right?), let the engine dry out for an hour with the battery on charge. Then fit brand new plugs, reconnect the HT leads and listen to your engine fire up at the first attempt. (Well, it *could* happen!)
Using basically the same approach Wedg1e described, I'd suggest one small change and that's to turn engine over until you see the rockers for #1 crossing (one closing, one opening) - then you know #1 cylinder is around TDC on the exhaust stroke. Turn the crank through another full revolution and you have #1 TDC on the compression stroke. Note where the rotor arm is pointing and designate the corresponding HT tower as #1 cylinder. #1 is the cylinder nearest the dizzy, of course. 3, 5, 7 are the other cylinders on the same bank. 2, 4, 6, 8 are the corresponding cylinders on the far bank. The firing order is 18436572 so work around the dizzy cap starting at #1 and connect each HT tower to the appropriate plug.
At this point the ignition timing is still pretty random. Crank the engine over with a strobe on #1 lead and try to spot the timing mark. It may be miles out - move the dizzy around to adjust the timing until the strobe catches the timing mark, you may need to move as much as 20 deg either way to find it. Fine tune the dizzy position to give you about 5 deg of advance. (Once it's running OK you'll want to advance this to about 8 degrees.)
Check that you have a good strong spark on at least a couple of plugs.
This is a good time to take all the plugs out (you labelled #1 lead before disconnecting it, right?), let the engine dry out for an hour with the battery on charge. Then fit brand new plugs, reconnect the HT leads and listen to your engine fire up at the first attempt. (Well, it *could* happen!)
rev-erend said:
Or alternatively you could just go to megasquirt & jolt .. if it has wasted spark then you cant be 180 degrees out..
Go on - you know you want to
Currently have my magasquirt on the desk checking out what minimum I need to get electrics done Go on - you know you want to
Although for some reason this is not talking to the laptop
so unable to reprogram it for the V8, and been to busy on the car trying to sort the electrics !Think all I need is a new edis 8, another coil pack or 2 new ones and fit a trigger wheel and sensor
But then not sure if the current ecu also needs a trigger from the dissy - suppose I could keep the old system in and just have the MS attached as the spark system ?
gsx600 said:
But then not sure if the current ecu also needs a trigger from the dissy - suppose I could keep the old system in and just have the MS attached as the spark system ?
The original EFI system will use the pulse from the ignition system to trigger the fuel injection.By the time you've installed MS for ignition you're so close to a complete MS system that I'd suggest you just bite the bullet. It's not hard to set up and eliminates all of the original EFI system, gives you half the things to go wrong and means you only need to look in one place if it does. Also means that you have full control over the fuelling if you're interested in tuning it, rather than stuck with a proprietary closed system.
WOuld anyone care to share with me the costs of installing a full Megajolt or Megasquirt system?
My stock ignition system isn't up to the job and runs out of sparks at 5000rpm, if i close up the spark plug gap i gain revs but loose torque lower down the rev range.
PS Feel freePM me if you don't want your Missus to find out it cost 5x as much as you told her it did
My stock ignition system isn't up to the job and runs out of sparks at 5000rpm, if i close up the spark plug gap i gain revs but loose torque lower down the rev range.
PS Feel freePM me if you don't want your Missus to find out it cost 5x as much as you told her it did
well stripped down everything today, taken off power steering bracket, dissy, leads,afm, rocker box and then found no 1 tdc by using compression tester, just about gives a puff when turned by hand, checked for lift / fall of piston
Then rebuilt new dissy again put back in hole with engine in tdc to give me about 45 degrees of movement in dissy housing
Stuck the leads back on in order, but now not sure wether to start up with dissy on zero or turned anticlockwise or clockwise from TDC
So will have to experiment again and hopefully get running and then sort out power steering bracket to fit !
Then rebuilt new dissy again put back in hole with engine in tdc to give me about 45 degrees of movement in dissy housing
Stuck the leads back on in order, but now not sure wether to start up with dissy on zero or turned anticlockwise or clockwise from TDC
So will have to experiment again and hopefully get running and then sort out power steering bracket to fit !
I bought mine fully assembled and tested, with various extras such as a stimulator and some add-on options for water injection, knock control and so on it came to £350 for the ECU. The software to configure and map it is freely available, but I also bought myself a copy of Philip Tobin's MegaLogViewer which is highly recommended if you plan to map it yourself (and there's no reason why you shouldn't). If you are prepared to build the ECU yourself you can get the PCB and the necessary components for about a quarter of the price, it depends how ambitious you are.
The engine loom cost me about £100 in wiring and connectors, and of course I spent a fair bit on other stuff such as the coil packs, crank sensor, wideband lambda (not essential, but recommended) and so on. You'd incur these extra costs whichever engine management system you went for.
It took me a weekend to make the loom, another weekend to configure the ECU and install and test the loom and hook it all together. I was quite astonished the next weekend that it fired up at the first attempt, it really was that simple. Of course there's a huge difference between firing it up and having a fully sorted engine with fuel and ignition mapped, cold starting, transient enrichment set up and so on, but that's part of the fun.
The engine loom cost me about £100 in wiring and connectors, and of course I spent a fair bit on other stuff such as the coil packs, crank sensor, wideband lambda (not essential, but recommended) and so on. You'd incur these extra costs whichever engine management system you went for.
It took me a weekend to make the loom, another weekend to configure the ECU and install and test the loom and hook it all together. I was quite astonished the next weekend that it fired up at the first attempt, it really was that simple. Of course there's a huge difference between firing it up and having a fully sorted engine with fuel and ignition mapped, cold starting, transient enrichment set up and so on, but that's part of the fun.
Yeah I have the MS and the test boards, just having an issue communicating with ecu at the moment, need to dig out another cable to test, or connect to the main pc !
Just got to get the stuff for 8 cyl as the MS came off a 4 cyl engine
Car is now running, but still got a misfire which I can drive through
Next to change is some test leads and new plugs, although the couple I took out looked hardley worn
Just got to get the stuff for 8 cyl as the MS came off a 4 cyl engine
Car is now running, but still got a misfire which I can drive through
Next to change is some test leads and new plugs, although the couple I took out looked hardley worn
gsx600 said:
Yeah I have the MS and the test boards, just having an issue communicating with ecu at the moment, need to dig out another cable to test, or connect to the main pc !
It's not just the old RS232 confusion is it... some cables have certain leads crossed over rather than pin-to-pin, or a link missing or something... seem to remember having no end of hassle with that a few years back.Gassing Station | Wedges | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff