Adding a Little Horsepower

[USCANAM]

We were warned when we were building the engine, that the G50 gearbox that was built for us by Power Haus II was good for about 450 hp. One of the areas that we held back a little power was the mating of the intake manifold and cylinder head ports.
After 6000 miles of driving and a couple hundred miles of track and drag strip, the drive train appears in good shape, so while investigating a slight water leak which involved removing the intake manifold, we decided to do the final blueprinting of the engine with the dye grinder.
The high-performance Fel-Pro intake gaskets have a larger opening and they mate up to the Brodix Track 1 intake ports perfectly. But you can see by the photo
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing6/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-1208133.html
that the openings of the Edelbrock 3500 EFI intake manifold is smaller and uneven. We laid the gasket in position and traced the line using a felt pen, hence the outer edge of the line is just about correct.
Obviously you would only feel the benefits at WOT.
Who knows, this might lower my 1/4 mile time from 11.3 to 11.2!! Look out Jeff....

This might be an area you might want to check if you ever have the top center of the engine off.
Just a few hours work can earn you a few more horsepower.
Jack

[eliot]

Just done exactly the same thing on a Victor Jnr Manifold converted for Fuel Injection, using same said Fel-pro gaskets.
This is the before shot, as you can see not a million miles out to start with.
www.mez.co.uk/dcam/12200014.JPG
Eliot.

[davefiddes]

Is that a 1205 gasket you're taking it out to?

[USCANAM]

davefiddes said:

Is that a 1205 gasket you're taking it out to?

Dave
1207..(special order) .. Will check at the shop today to make sure that's the number.
Jack

>> Edited by USCANAM on Sunday 28th December 14:57

[USCANAM]

USCANAM said:

davefiddes said: Is that a 1205 gasket you're taking it out to? Dave 1207..(special order) .. Will check at the shop today to make sure that's the number. Jack Dave It is a 1207. According to the FelPro catalogue the opening is about .060" larger in each direction than a 1206. >> 14:57

[davefiddes]

Eeek! That's enormous.

I've heard of folk having all sorts of issues moving Holley EFI manifolds out to 1206. Kudos to Edelbrock for having enough metal left to allow you to do a neat job.

Have you got a wideband O2 sensor to help tweek the last little bit out of the fuel map?

[USCANAM]

davefiddes said:

Have you got a wideband O2 sensor to help tweek the last little bit out of the fuel map?

Dave
I'm using the O2 sensor that came with the 3500 package. Not sure what a wideband sensor would do.
Several points;
This is the first ECU that I've programmed. What we've found is we're pretty well maxed out with the 30 lb. injectors that is standard with the unit. That's the largest Edelbrock has.
As you know, the Edelbrock has it's own control module, so you can almost merrily drive along and program the engine (with someone else doing the driving of course!!) while keeping your eye on the rich/lean light.
But in the real world, the car has so much power, and is so fast now, I'm perfectly happy with the few extra horses I'll be picking up with the manifold mating.
Not sure how it is in Europe, but a moving offense citation here, goes on your insurance for 6 years, which gives the insurance company an excuse to allow you to pay higher premimums in that time period.
Right now I can reach 140mph in 12 seconds from a standing start. That could be a disaster waiting for a brain fart moment to happen, especially if there are some flashing light cars in the area.
My Corvette salesman was dying for a ride in the CanAm, and we obliged, carefully pulling out of the dealership onto a busy 45mph road. This was the first time I had ever tried to do a rapid start, and within 4 seconds, I was 20 mph over the speed limit according to my Stack Dash. We didn't get caught, and the smile on Mike's face was worth it, but it could've been very costly!! Oh, he also said the CO6 wouldn't be close!!
Jack

[davefiddes]

The narrow band o2 sensor just reads out rich or lean switching at stoichiometric (14.7:1 for gas). A wideband o2 sensor gives you, hopefully, an accurate read out of the actual air/fuel ratio. This is useful for getting the absolute best power and/or economy out of your engine as best power usually happens about 12-13:1 and best economy about 15-17:1. The wideband sensor will allow you to ensure that you don't go too rich on power or too lean under cruise...though without sticking the thing on a dyno I'm not quite sure how you're meant to get the absolute best power out of the system (the 12-13:1 varys depending on the engine).

I'm looking at getting a WB o2 sensor kit from TechEdge.

Tuning using the narrow band and letting the thing go into closed loop will give pretty good power and decent emissions/mileage. The 30lb injectors sounds like they should be being maxed out with the kind of hp you're producing. It's a shame that Edelbrock use short "stubby" injectors on their kits which I think is what limits the injectors you can use. OTOH if they didn't use short ones the whole package would be a lot taller in would give you more trouble with the low back of the CanAm.

I'm with you on the highway driving issues. It's worse over here, in addition to the insurance/ticket issues if you get four speeding tickets your licence is history...

...on the other hand. It's going to be 2 more months till I can get my car registered and on the road and ina possition to collect tickets. Dreaming up over elaborate ways of getting another 2-3 hp helps to pad out the time... I hate winter

[USCANAM]

Dave
Thanks for the info on the sensors.
As for economy, Jeff S. says he's getting about 22 mpg (American), which is reasonable considering the more modern engine he's using. On the highway at about 65 mph (about 2200 revs)I appear to be getting about 16-17 mpg (American). You would think such a light car should do better, but I have the ECU set more on the safe side.
The Edelbrock system allows you to pre-set 3 engine set-ups, so I guess I could have a cruise program which should get me around 20 mpg.
It's not only a matter of economy (moreso in Europe with the higher fuel prices), but the pain in the ass of having to stop all the time and re-fuel and putting up with all the attention the car attracts when stopped. It's nice at first, but it's really amazing how many utterly rude and crude people are out there. On the other hand, you will sometimes meet a decent observer, and that will slightly make up for the others.
As I tried to say previously, you'll find that you have so much power, that a little more will not make that much difference. Smoothness and reliability will become your prime interest.
Weather looks good here for New Years Day,(temps in the 40'sF.) and we have a ride planned with a British Car Club I belong to. Meeting at Plymouth Rock (yes, that one that some of your fore-fathers or relatives might have stepped on). Has to be top down, (no problem since I don't have one).
Good luck on the rest of your build and the certification. We have ways of getting around that here.
Happy New Year, and may your drivers license last many of them!!
Jack

[mkoch1]

FJO also makes a nice wideband o2. www.fjoracing.com/products/WBAFR_gauge.htm
Haven’t had a chance to use mine yet, but they came highly recommended. Most dyno shops will have a wide band to tune with so you really don't need your own. Although they are nice to have if you are tuning yourself. I would say it’s a must on boosted applications. You might want to check with your ecu manufacture, some ecu will accept the signal from the wide band instead of a normal o2 sensor.



Mark

[davefiddes]

mkoch1 said:

FJO also makes a nice wideband o2.

I've heard good things about their units though being based on the Honda/NTK sensor makes it quite expensive. That said it can apparently cope with leaded fuel which could be useful.

One of the cools things about the megasquirt ECU I'm looking at is that it comes with tuning software that allows you to make a few turns round the block (or in the case of an Ultima - airfield) whilst running a datalogging program and wideband o2 sensor. When you get back to base you can then feed the data back into the map table to fix any issues. Dyno tuning is good for getting a decent baseline but I think you really need to tune it (with someone to help!) for its intended use (street, track, etc) as well. Which is where the WB o2 is handy.

Jack: Those are pretty reasonable fuel consumption figures none the less (17 us mpg is ~21 uk mpg). I'm sure its a lot more drivable than a carb'd car too (especially when the vacuum advance has been locked out on the dizzy ).

I've been cruising around the past few months with my brother in his bright yellow thirdgen Camaro (at least as rare/striking as an Ultima here). At first it was quite fun getting pointed at by everyone from old grannies to wee kids...but I guess when the good weather comes and folk don't mind stopping to ask about the car it'll start wearing a little thin. Puts the Max Power/ricer brigade in their place though

Hope the weather holds for you on New Years Day and you get out to play!

[jschwartz]

I tuned mine with a wideband and MAF Translator.
Running 13:1 af wot and about 13.5 cruise.
Wide band is the only accurate way to do it, saw a bunch of different ones at SEMA and PRI. About $350.
A test on one Wide Band is in the Feb Car Craft.
Jeff

[USCANAM]

Dave
This wide band is starting to look interesting. Have been looking at the FJO site that Mark posted.
How does this differ from the control module that I have with my Edelbrock 3500? Granted it only has one light that changes from green, to orange to red depending on the mixture. Am I to assume that the a unit such as a FJO is more accurate?
Also can it be used to feed the Edelbrock ECU, or would I use the spare bung on the other exhaust pipe.
Happy New Year to you too Jeff. We haven't talked in a while. Hope all is well with the beast!!
Jack

[srreck]

I'm using this one www.innovatemotorsports.com LM-1 wide AFR meter. It works pretty well, supports a lot of inputs and comes with a PC software for graphics and real time analisis.
Cheers,

[davefiddes]

USCANAM said:

How does this differ from the control module that I have with my Edelbrock 3500? Granted it only has one light that changes from green, to orange to red depending on the mixture. Am I to assume that the a unit such as a FJO is more accurate?

I'm not sure how much more accurate it is. The sensor supplied with your edelbrock kit is quite limited in operation. It can only show a boolean lean or rich setting. When it shows orange it will be oscillating rapidly between rich and lean at stoichiometric. The wideband sensor shows the AFR as a continuous value from 10:1 to 20:1 or there abouts.

USCANAM said:

Also can it be used to feed the Edelbrock ECU, or would I use the spare bung on the other exhaust pipe.

The FJO and Innovate Motor sports units don't seem to support this. The TechEdge unit however has a simulated narrow band output that is compatible with your existing ECU.

It's probably a good idea to stick the sensor in either bank to see if there are any problems with the fueling that only affects one side. I don't think that this is likely to be too much of an issue with your port injection. Anyone with TBI or a carb could have issues with unequal fuel distribution however...

I think the TEC3 unit Mark is using has support for plugging two wideband sensors into it to tune each bank independently. That's pretty neat!

[USCANAM]

Dave
Thank you for the detailed report. Looks like you've done your homework on this subject. I think the next thing for me to do is send you a round trip ticket to Boston so we can work on this face to face!!!
Jack

[mkoch1]

USCANAM said:

Dave This wide band is starting to look interesting. Have been looking at the FJO site that Mark posted. How does this differ from the control module that I have with my Edelbrock 3500? Granted it only has one light that changes from green, to orange to red depending on the mixture. Am I to assume that the a unit such as a FJO is more accurate? Also can it be used to feed the Edelbrock ECU, or would I use the spare bung on the other exhaust pipe. Happy New Year to you too Jeff. We haven't talked in a while. Hope all is well with the beast!! Jack

Here is a good explanation of wide band vs narrow band. More faq at www.widebando2.com/

Why not use a 'narrow band' O2 sensor for tuning?

Common dash mounted AFR meters make use of one, three or four wire factory installed oxygen sensors which are incapable of providing a wideband output. These sensors, by design, will read a high voltage with an air/fuel mixture below stoichiometric (14.7:1) and a low voltage above this point, functioning more or less as a toggle to tell the ECU when the mixture is richer than 14.7:1 and when it is leaner than 14.7:1. Outside a very narrow range around 14.7:1, the so-called narrow-band sensor isn't of much use for performance tuning. The problem is, this device has no way of accurately and reliably differentiating between 12:1 and 13:1, or conversely, 15:1 and 18:1. The readings are also greatly affected by exhaust gas temperature and sensor location. A 2:1 ratio variation is not uncommon. It is important to remember that automobile manufacturers installed these sensors to maintain a stoichiometric mixture under cruising conditions, as this is the point where optimum catalytic converter efficiency is achieved. These narrow band sensors were never designed for accuracy of the degree needed for maintaining accurate tuning and safety in high output performance engines.

mark

[davefiddes]

USCANAM said:

Dave Thank you for the detailed report. Looks like you've done your homework on this subject. I think the next thing for me to do is send you a round trip ticket to Boston so we can work on this face to face!!!

I talk a good game but I don't have a lot of practical experience...yet...still waiting for the bits to arrive to begin playing.

There's a lot of very clever EFI and tuning folk on ChevyTalk that can offer advice on tuning your setup if needed.

[USCANAM]

mkoch1 said:

Here is a good explanation of wide band vs narrow band. More faq at www.widebando2.com/ mark

Thanks Mark
I'll be right near there in January playing Old Fart Baseball. Should be able to drop in and see them.
Jack

[eliot]

davefiddes said:

I'm looking at getting a WB o2 sensor kit from TechEdge.

Dave, I just bought a new Bosch LSU4 wideband sensor from ebay, at £40 i thought it was a bargain. Once i get my beast running (very soon now!) i might look at the tech-edge unit also. The Ultramegasquirt will use the same wideband sensor, so either way it will come in useful.
Eliot.